9/11 or Pearl Harbor?
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dwccrew
Seriously? Jesus man, what the hell don't you get about the original question? See below:HitsRus;1037786 wrote:You must be appalled at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, V-1's and V-2 raining down on London, the carpet bombing of Berlin.
Truth is...War is hell and bombs make no distinction. Americans are Americans to me.
I'll agree to disagree though.
The question did not ask worst day in the history of the world, so that would rule out your stupid comparison of Japan, Germany, etc, etc. It didn't say what would lead into worse wars/time period. It said what was the worst day. IMO, it was 9/11 because civilians were targeted instead of military targets. Both were bad, but 9/11/01 was a much worse day than 12/7/41 as a single day for AMERICAN history.sleeper;1034716 wrote:Worst day in American history? -
isadore
1. I am right, you are a Confederate apologist.jmog;1038633 wrote:1. You are still wrong.
2. Please read some of General Lee's writings with regards to slavery. If the South had won the war who do you think would have been their 2nd President? Just like the colonies unanimously elected General Washington, the south would have elected General Lee.
In today's views Lee would look like a racist, but in 1850 Virginia, Lee was as close to an abolitionist as you can find. Heck, the man nearly fought for the North, he only chose to fight for the South because he was more loyal to Virginia as a state than to the country as a whole.
2. Lee was one leader, not leaders. There is no sign that he would have run for President and you do not know if he had whether he would have pushed abolition
Jefferson Davis was constitutionally elected to a 6 year term on March 11, 1861, he would have been in office until 1867 and with a Confederate victory would not be about to abolish slavery, he praised the Peculiar Institution. Even if Lee had been elected and truly wanted to abolish slavery, he died in 1870, so a very short term.
Washington had political experience before assuming the Presidency in Virginia House of Burgesses and as President of the Constitutional Convention, Lee had none.
Washington had political allies who shared his ideals for the country and with those allies he met strong opposition from opposition lead by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. If Lee had advocated abolition he would have no support in the Confederate Congress.
While his wife and daughter’s views were relatively enlightened for southerners of the time, his was more mixed in his actions and views. He viewed slavery as a positive for blacks. While temporarily managing his plantation while on leave from the army he had slaves beaten including a female slave. When his army entered Pennsylvania in the Gettysburg, escaped slaves caught were sent South and returned to slavery, there were reports that some of those sent were freedmen.
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jmog
You are a complete moron, nothing I have said apologized for the Confederacy, I have stated over and over that they were 100% morally wrong.isadore;1039040 wrote:1. I am right, you are a Confederate apologist.
2. Lee was one leader, not leaders. There is no sign that he would have run for President and you do not know if he had whether he would have pushed abolition
Jefferson Davis was constitutionally elected to a 6 year term on March 11, 1861, he would have been in office until 1867 and with a Confederate victory would not be about to abolish slavery, he praised the Peculiar Institution. Even if Lee had been elected and truly wanted to abolish slavery, he died in 1870, so a very short term.
Washington had political experience before assuming the Presidency in Virginia House of Burgesses and as President of the Constitutional Convention, Lee had none.
Washington had political allies who shared his ideals for the country and with those allies he met strong opposition from opposition lead by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. If Lee had advocated abolition he would have no support in the Confederate Congress.
While his wife and daughter’s views were relatively enlightened for southerners of the time, his was more mixed in his actions and views. He viewed slavery as a positive for blacks. While temporarily managing his plantation while on leave from the army he had slaves beaten including a female slave. When his army entered Pennsylvania in the Gettysburg, escaped slaves caught were sent South and returned to slavery, there were reports that some of those sent were freedmen.
You can't possibly be this stupid. -
isadore
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk personal invective. According to you oh the South was wrong, HOWEVER the evil North was constitutionally persecuting the poor South and the Southern leaders were going to abolish slavery, or its not leaders, its just Robert E. Lee who would do it, or could have, may have, might have or something like that. That is an apologist in action.jmog;1039178 wrote:You are a complete moron, nothing I have said apologized for the Confederacy, I have stated over and over that they were 100% morally wrong.
You can't possibly be this stupid. -
HitsRus
Look, I tried to keep this civil, and I'm staying a lot more 'on topic' than others on this thread. The point I'm making that you can't seem to get is that to me, at least, Americans are Americans...and I don't care whether they are in the military or not. Either case, Daddy (or Mommy) is not coming home.The question did not ask worst day in the history of the world, so that would rule out your stupid comparison of Japan, Germany, etc, etc. It didn't say what would lead into worse wars/time period. It said what was the worst day. IMO, it was 9/11 because civilians were targeted instead of military targets
Secondly, in war, civilians suffer and die too....and cited some other examples...war does not make a distinction.
Pearl was much worse than 9/11 in terms of actual damage to our country. 9/11 damaged our psyche and our warm fuzzy feelings of security and invincibility. The attack at Pearl Harbor took out half our Pacific fleet and thrust us into a war far greater than "the War on Terror' with our military forces severely damaged. This was hardly the case in the 9/11 attacks. This really isn't even close, except to those noobs that aren't old enough to remember Viet Nam. -
Sonofanump
I will disagree that you can use this contention to support your view if the question is restricted to a particular day as a sole entity not what the following result of that day caused.HitsRus;1039416 wrote:...and thrust us into a war far greater than "the War on Terror' with our military forces severely damaged. This was hardly the case in the 9/11 attacks. This really isn't even close, except to those noobs that aren't old enough to remember Viet Nam. -
SportsAndLady
This thread officially sucks ass -
Rotinaj
Im pretty sure it has from the beginning.SportsAndLady;1039573 wrote:This thread officially sucks ass -
Thinthickbigred
We AMERICANS dropped the bombs that killed tens of thousands of civilians so some of us consider it to be one of the worst days in American history because it certainly pertains to AMERICA!!!!!! It should not be a celebrated day for sure and at the least a sad daydwccrew;1038926 wrote:Seriously? Jesus man, what the hell don't you get about the original question? See below:
The question did not ask worst day in the history of the world, so that would rule out your stupid comparison of Japan, Germany, etc, etc. It didn't say what would lead into worse wars/time period. It said what was the worst day. IMO, it was 9/11 because civilians were targeted instead of military targets. Both were bad, but 9/11/01 was a much worse day than 12/7/41 as a single day for AMERICAN history. -
Thinthickbigred
I corrected the spelling now . On the war thing yes all wars are horrible and terrible etc . We talk abbout terrorism and bomboings of civilians . 911 angered us all because it was targeted on civilians . If you are targeting a military instalation it is atleast different in that regard.HitsRus;1038086 wrote:^^^I think you mean insight....incite puts a whole different context to your post.
I'm not sure where this concept of sanitized wars and fighting wars 'morally' came from. Innocents die, are uprooted/displaced, are victims of all sorts of horrors. We, as Americans, are no worse nor better than anyone else. War is terrible...it is horrible...it is meant to be that way... and that is why it is to be avoided.
Fighting wars with "rules" only lasts as long until someone comes along to break them. -
isadore
For millions of Americans it was a great day. For those men training for the invasion of Japan and for the others preparing to be shipped from Europe to reenforce those forces, the bomb was heaven sent.Thinthickbigred;1040112 wrote:We AMERICANS dropped the bombs that killed tens of thousands of civilians so some of us consider it to be one of the worst days in American history because it certainly pertains to AMERICA!!!!!! It should not be a celebrated day for sure and at the least a sad day -
Sonofanump
Fact. Shit, I just agreed with isadore.isadore;1040328 wrote:For millions of Americans it was a great day. For those men training for the invasion of Japan and for the others preparing to be shipped from Europe to reenforce those forces, the bomb was heaven sent. -
isadoreThe answers to the originial question are either highly personal or an exercise in presentism. There is no way the people contributing to the thread understand exactly how the American people felt on December 7th, 1941. For us "a day that will live in infamy" is a line in a history book for them the Japanese attack was the epitome of evil. In many ways we were a more isolated and insular nation at that time. We had not been attacked since the War of 1812. People were just coming out the Depression, the worst economic time in our history. Most Americans wanted to stay out of the war, then.........
There are other days and other generations experience that we can not understand the horror they felt. Lincoln assassinated five days after Lee surrenders. The first President murdered, just as the bloodiest war in our history is coming to an end. -
dwccrew
Right, because getting into an endless war with no defined enemy, creating departments and legislation (Homeland Security and P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act) that are unconstitutional and wasteful are worse than a war that we won in a shorter time frame and actually pulled us out of the Great Depression.HitsRus wrote:Look, I tried to keep this civil, and I'm staying a lot more 'on topic' than others on this thread. The point I'm making that you can't seem to get is that to me, at least, Americans are Americans...and I don't care whether they are in the military or not. Either case, Daddy (or Mommy) is not coming home.
Secondly, in war, civilians suffer and die too....and cited some other examples...war does not make a distinction.
Pearl was much worse than 9/11 in terms of actual damage to our country. 9/11 damaged our psyche and our warm fuzzy feelings of security and invincibility. The attack at Pearl Harbor took out half our Pacific fleet and thrust us into a war far greater than "the War on Terror' with our military forces severely damaged. This was hardly the case in the 9/11 attacks. This really isn't even close, except to those noobs that aren't old enough to remember Viet Nam.
Apparently he still doesn't get it.Sonofanump;1039563 wrote:I will disagree that you can use this contention to support your view if the question is restricted to a particular day as a sole entity not what the following result of that day caused.
What? STFUThinthickbigred;1040112 wrote:We AMERICANS dropped the bombs that killed tens of thousands of civilians so some of us consider it to be one of the worst days in American history because it certainly pertains to AMERICA!!!!!! It should not be a celebrated day for sure and at the least a sad day -
HitsRus
By our own choice and by our own hand....we did that to ourselves.Right, because getting into an endless war with no defined enemy, creating departments and legislation (Homeland Security and P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act) that are unconstitutional and wasteful are worse than a war that we won in a shorter time frame and actually pulled us out of the Great Depression.
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Thinthickbigred
You cant make me .. Everybody in my family served and my gradfathers fought in WWII and one was a fighter pilot and the other a full comander in the navy ,the latter is buried in Arlington cenmetary . My father was a navy vet ,my uncle an officer in the Army . I am an Army vey . I have more knowledge on WWII in my little pinky then you have believe me . I am an American and what we are supposed to stand for is freedoms of speech and asembly . People like you support terrible things like the Patriot act ,because people like you are not far off from fascism.dwccrew;1040537 wrote:Right, because getting into an endless war with no defined enemy, creating departments and legislation (Homeland Security and P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act) that are unconstitutional and wasteful are worse than a war that we won in a shorter time frame and actually pulled us out of the Great Depression.
Apparently he still doesn't get it.
What? STFU -
jmog
Holy crap, I actually agree with this moron for onceisadore;1040328 wrote:For millions of Americans it was a great day. For those men training for the invasion of Japan and for the others preparing to be shipped from Europe to reenforce those forces, the bomb was heaven sent.
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Thinthickbigred
"heaven sent" huh yea right Jesus would condone such a beautiful thing . So many of you right wing nut jobs sound like the Islamic fundlementalists who believe God will reward them for killing inocents .. My point is keep religion out of it . PEACE is what Jesus is about now war.isadore;1040328 wrote:For millions of Americans it was a great day. For those men training for the invasion of Japan and for the others preparing to be shipped from Europe to reenforce those forces, the bomb was heaven sent. -
DeyDurkie5
jesus died thousands of years ago..he has no idea what's going on now.Thinthickbigred;1042237 wrote:"heaven sent" huh yea right Jesus would condone such a beautiful thing . So many of you right wing nut jobs sound like the Islamic fundlementalists who believe God will reward them for killing inocents .. My point is keep religion out of it . PEACE is what Jesus is about now war. -
isadore
Well I got a feeling that those men in the 12 divisions who were training to land on Kyushu in November, 1945 with 750,000 Japanese soldiers on the island who knew their landing site. Or for the 25 divisions who were going to land on Honshu, South of Tokyo in April, 1946 it was heaven sent.Thinthickbigred;1042237 wrote:"heaven sent" huh yea right Jesus would condone such a beautiful thing . So many of you right wing nut jobs sound like the Islamic fundlementalists who believe God will reward them for killing inocents .. My point is keep religion out of it . PEACE is what Jesus is about now war. -
Thinthickbigred
Thats hypothetical . Droping the bomb on those civilian targets was a disgrace that nobody seems to realize. I know Im far in the minority because we live in a hate filled society and As much as I hated watching people burn the American flag in the 80's and calling us paper tiger etc . I kind of want to vomit with all the flag waving of today . The Vietnam veterns were treated disgustingly by our country ,but today its like polar opposite . Everything is RAH RAH and salute the flag and celebrate everything war related . why cant we get the heck out of all these countries we have bases in . Why do we have the Patriot act where the government can spy on its civilians at any whim without consequences. Lets stop glorifying war .isadore;1042414 wrote:Well I got a feeling that those men in the 12 divisions who were training to land on Kyushu in November, 1945 with 750,000 Japanese soldiers on the island who knew their landing site. Or for the 25 divisions who were going to land on Honshu, South of Tokyo in April, 1946 it was heaven sent. -
isadoreYou can feel disgraced by whatever you like. For me the bombings ended a war that cost 60 million lives. They saved untold American, Allied and Japanese lives.
I liked to see flag waved. More importantly I hope the returning troops have all the medical and psychological treatment they need and all the educational and occupational opportunities they deserve. -
jmog
You being more "ok" with millions dying by an invasion to end the war vs about 250,000 is disgusting.Thinthickbigred;1042464 wrote:Thats hypothetical . Droping the bomb on those civilian targets was a disgrace that nobody seems to realize. I know Im far in the minority because we live in a hate filled society and As much as I hated watching people burn the American flag in the 80's and calling us paper tiger etc . I kind of want to vomit with all the flag waving of today . The Vietnam veterns were treated disgustingly by our country ,but today its like polar opposite . Everything is RAH RAH and salute the flag and celebrate everything war related . why cant we get the heck out of all these countries we have bases in . Why do we have the Patriot act where the government can spy on its civilians at any whim without consequences. Lets stop glorifying war .
I am not one to advocate killing people in any sense of the word, but when your chioce is killing millions (half of which would be our men) or killing 250,000 I take the 250,000 every time.
History has judged those two bombs as justified uses of the weapon, even if you don't think so. -
Thinthickbigred
Ill say this I think this thread has run its cours and we need to start another one with a different heading . I just think the media has brainwashed us into alot of our attitudes. war is deplorable . in some cases yes it must be fought . If attacked we must defend ourselves . Im not real big on policing the world though and ever since the ending of WWII we took over the United Kingdoms part in advancing our impearialism. I do believe countries such as Iran and North Korea cannot be ignored and if we have the capabilities to stop them from developing nuclear weapons we must . i would howver like to see us take more of a backseat in foriegn problems and let the European countries spend there gold in foriegn problems much like they did in Liybia. We need to scale ourselves back .jmog;1042745 wrote:You being more "ok" with millions dying by an invasion to end the war vs about 250,000 is disgusting.
I am not one to advocate killing people in any sense of the word, but when your chioce is killing millions (half of which would be our men) or killing 250,000 I take the 250,000 every time.
History has judged those two bombs as justified uses of the weapon, even if you don't think so. -
jmog
I don't disagree with any of that, but nothing you said here has anything to do with the dropping of the atomic bombs.Thinthickbigred;1042795 wrote:Ill say this I think this thread has run its cours and we need to start another one with a different heading . I just think the media has brainwashed us into alot of our attitudes. war is deplorable . in some cases yes it must be fought . If attacked we must defend ourselves . Im not real big on policing the world though and ever since the ending of WWII we took over the United Kingdoms part in advancing our impearialism. I do believe countries such as Iran and North Korea cannot be ignored and if we have the capabilities to stop them from developing nuclear weapons we must . i would howver like to see us take more of a backseat in foriegn problems and let the European countries spend there gold in foriegn problems much like they did in Liybia. We need to scale ourselves back .