Can we just shut the government down already?

• O-Trap

  

  ptown_trojans_1;1516168 wrote:This is what pisses me off. Honestly, what good do they think this will do?
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/trucker-beltway-protest-on-again/2013/10/10/5f7e7096-31b9-11e3-9c68-1cf643210300_story.html?hpid=z2
  
  Now, sure people don't like DC, but really not all of us are bleeding liberals that live off the Government work.
  But, I'm sure all of you on here don't care and are for this.
  
  Nevermind the people that have to work in other jobs that are not related to the Government.

  I don't know about others, but this just seems like fruitless protest that will get in the way of fellow citizens more than make a statement to government officials.
  
  Ineffective. Allowed, but ineffective.
  

  ptown_trojans_1;1516170 wrote:And, really, what is the end game for the R's?
  A full repeal of Obamacare? That is not happening. That is like asking Bush to repeal his tax cuts while he was in office.
  A one year delay? Or six month delay?
  
  Since the President will not fully stop the healthcare law, at what point do R's say, ok, let's reopen this up?

  Therein lies the question. I'm not so sure continuing on is even a valuable alternative to gridlock, at this point.
• TedSheckler

  

  IggyPride00;1516113 wrote:New NBC/Wallstreet Journal Poll:
  
  
  
  The first few days didn't seem to be that bad as there seemed to be alot of blaming both sides in the polls, but in the last few days the tide seems to be really turning against Republicans if the polls are to be believed.
  
  http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20903624-nbcwsj-poll-shutdown-debate-damages-gop?lite

  And another NBC/WSJ poll says 60% would fire everyone in Congress. 14% think the country is headed in the right direction.
  
  http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20903531-nbcwsj-poll-60-percent-say-fire-every-member-of-congress?lite
• gut

  Repubs have been taking it from almost every direction in the media since about 2006.
  
  What they HAVE done effectively here is punch a few holes in 'ol Teflon and his buddies' armor. They've made this issues front and center, and the old "blame and villify" isn't going to work in 2014. Independents and swing voters aren't going to want to hear that, they'll want to hear solutions and a plan to fix things.
  
  Truthfully Obama and the Dems planned to dig-in and cross-fingers waiting for the Repubs to hang themselves. But as soon as they also started taking a beating in the polls (which is all Teflon & friends care about) they softened.
  
  IMO these past 6 months have seen confidence and credibility in Obama severely shaken. We'll see if he takes note and changes, but I don't think he can negotiate thru the media, distance himself from Congress, and just take potshots from the cheap seats. Even the liberal media is struggling to defend the empty suit these days.
• gut

  TedSheckler;1516186 wrote:And another NBC/WSJ poll says 60% would fire everyone in Congress

  Truthfully excellent news. But it remains to be seen.
  
  People seem to be starting to grasp how serious the debt situation and unfunded entitlements are. This is the real reason the left AND right are so angry with the TEA Party. They're not letting them just kick the can and punt on these issues - most of these politicians just want to hand-out some goodies, get re-elected a few times and then retire to cushy pensions & consulting/lobby jobs. The TEA Party is fucking up their gravy train and they are not happy about it.
• HitsRus

  

  I Wear Pants;1516088 wrote:This post kind of reinforces what I just said.

  ...and this post shows that you absolutely HAVE to believe this or your narrative is destroyed, your world view becomes non sequiter, and your heads starts spinning like a robot girl in an Austin Powers movie.
  
  Conservatives don't think America is "awful" or we are "ashamed" of our country...I think you have that backwards. They think that this country is the greatest on earth and is founded on the greatest human rights document in history. It is necessarily about protecting the rights of individuals against an overreaching or tyrannical government or transient whims of narrow majorities.There is no 'seething hatred" for "large swaths" of their fellow countrymen,... it is about respect for ALL people of our country and their right to live a life as they see fit with a minimum of government dictation and intrusion.
  
  You are right about one thing ...conservatives believe that patriotism and love of country are core values. We can look at the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights and we know the names of the authors, who were accountable and available for questioning by Congress who thoroughly debated and vetted the bills before signing into law. But you cannot to this day tell me who wrote and assembled ACA, and who is accountable for the answers...nor can you tell me that the bill was thoroughly read and debated before it was rammed thru by a transient, partisan majority and signed into law. Surely, something of this magnitude should have bipartisan support. Surely, you can tell me what is so perfect about this law, that the "authors" or signers or supporters of this are immune to having the bill scrutinized. Surely you can tell me why the President won't sit down and address concerns that apparently the great majority of Americans have about this law thrust upon them.
  That is the question that the media needs to ask...."why Mr. president, is it necessary to shut the government down, rather than to address the concerns of...how did you say it...a "large swath" of Americans? No democrat would oppose a union work stoppage of a company if management of that company refused to hear/address their grievances. The same applies here.
  .
  Barack Obama is the President of the United States. Although it never has before, and he deftly ducks and dodges issue after issue...the buck stops on his desk. ..Not on Congress, not on the Republicans. He owns the shutdown....he's the president...what is he going to do about it?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp8dt2lRwi8
  "You can't resist us, Mr. Powers"....
  
  
  "Au Contraire IWP"....
• Glory Days

  

  gut;1516015 wrote:They're all getting backpay, so as long as they are back to work by Thanksgiving the stores will be packed for black Friday. And really, outside of Washington, stores probably won't notice any decline in demand.
  
  Basically a localized beltway recession, at worst. And here's America playing the world's tiniest violin .

  I know I wont be blowing my money when I get the back pay. I will be paying all the bills that will have added up by then. and it wont be the beltway, it will be every large city in the united states. every city with a military base nearby that relies on contractors etc. the only people getting pay on time now is actual service members and congress.
• gut

  Glory Days;1516211 wrote:I know I wont be blowing my money when I get the back pay. I will be paying all the bills that will have added up by then. and it wont be the beltway, it will be every large city in the united states. every city with a military base nearby that relies on contractors etc. the only people getting pay on time now is actual service members and congress.

  I'm sorry...If you get backpay PLUS unemployment...why exactly are you cancelling rather than simply delaying purchases? There's no impact only a deferral - welcome to Econ 101. Take a seat down over there next to Boatshoes.
  
  Did you come up with this whining bitch on your own, or steal it from some bullshit liberal rag?
• queencitybuckeye

  ptown_trojans_1;1516170 wrote:And, really, what is the end game for the R's?
  A full repeal of Obamacare? That is not happening. That is like asking Bush to repeal his tax cuts while he was in office.
  A one year delay? Or six month delay?
  

  My understanding that a one year delay in the employee mandate would be accepted. This should be politically acceptable to the new party of no, and has the added bonus that it makes perfect sense as policy.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  URS Corp. (URS), a U.S. engineering-advisory company, said the federal government’s shutdown forced the furlough of about 3,000 employees and may spur more layoffs if the impasse continues.
  
  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-10/urs-furloughs-3-000-workers-on-u-s-government-shutdown.html
  
  What a mess.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  queencitybuckeye;1516234 wrote:My understanding that a one year delay in the employee mandate would be accepted. This should be politically acceptable to the new party of no, and has the added bonus that it makes perfect sense as policy.

  Interesting to see. I highly doubt the President will take it though.
• BGFalcons82

  

  ptown_trojans_1;1516245 wrote:Interesting to see. I highly doubt the President will take it though.

  Yeah...he has real problems with that "equal protection under the law" lingo. He's the king and he gets to make the rules. How could we be so dumb not to understand?
• jmog

  I Wear Pants;1516029 wrote:That's not what the GOP has been saying. They've been saying they're trying for a delay. Also could Boehner not bring that vote to the floor, a clean CR with the attached "Congress must be under ACA" clause? Because if he can then he should because it would prove that Dems cared more about not being under ACA than a clean CR.

  He already has PASSED that exact thing. A clean CR with the Congress and their aids must be under the ACA.
  
  Have you not been paying attentino? That was the 3rd CR they passed that got rejected by the Senate.
  
  They passed a full defund of the ACA in a CR.
  They then passed a delay of a year of the ACA in a CR.
  They then passed a "Congress and their aids must be in the ACA with no credits" in a CR.
  
  The Senate Ds said no to all 3.
• IggyPride00

  

  A Wall Street Journal/NBC poll released Thursday night — and no doubt reflecting what both White House and Republican pollsters already knew — showed the public approval rating for Republicans at 24 percent, an all-time low in the history of the survey. Seventy percent of respondents said the congressional GOP was putting politics before the good of the country, and, worst for the GOP, the numbers for Obamacare have actually risen during the shutdown.
  
  Thirty-eight percent of Americans now see the Affordable Care Act as a good idea, up from 31 percent last month, according to the poll. And while 43 percent see it as a bad idea — about the same as last month — 50 percent now say they oppose defunding the law.
  
  “That is an ideological boomerang,” Bill McInturff, a GOP pollster who teamed up with Democrat Peter Hart on the survey, told NBC. “As the debate has been going on, if there is a break, there is a break against the Republican position.
  
  
  Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-premature-celebration-government-shutdown-debt-ceilign-98167.html#ixzz2hQJAOe00

  What a complete and predictable disaster this has been.
  
  God help Calgary Ted and any of his minions if the House some how flips Democrat next year because of this fiasco, because it will be squarely on his shoulders that it happened. It will also put to rest any hope of a Tea Party type winning the White House in 2016.
• I Wear Pants

  "Let's assume that in the future, Obama's no longer president, there's a Republican president. And we Democrats say, "We're not going to raise the debt ceiling unless you pass background checks. Eighty-five percent of the American people support that, and we are not going to raise the debt ceiling until you pass it." We cannot leave the full faith and credit of the United States subject to a fight over whatever the issue of the day may be. That has never, ever, in the history of the country been done before. This is the first time."
  
  And did you really think the Tea Party could take the White House? How? Their social issues kill them with anyone but right-wingers.
• QuakerOats

  ptown_trojans_1;1516244 wrote:URS Corp. (URS), a U.S. engineering-advisory company, said the federal government’s shutdown forced the furlough of about 3,000 employees and may spur more layoffs if the impasse continues.
  
  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-10/urs-furloughs-3-000-workers-on-u-s-government-shutdown.html
  
  What a mess.

  
  
  
  Easily resolved, if only the democrats would do the Will of The People.
• QuakerOats

  I Wear Pants;1516327And did you really think the Tea Party could take the White House? How? [/QUOTE wrote:
  
  Given that the Marxist Party has the WH now, I guess anything is possible.

• I Wear Pants

  QuakerOats;1516342 wrote:Easily resolved, if only the democrats would do the Will of The People.

  So you're ignoring that a majority of people don't want a shutdown over ACA? (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57605822/poll-americans-not-happy-about-shutdown-more-blame-gop/)
  
  Though this does a decent job explaining why polls about blame and such are probably not particularly useful: http://www.grantland.com/fivethirtyeight/story/_/id/9802433/nate-silver-us-government-shutdown
  
  Yes, I know, Nate Silver the person you hate so much because of his very, very inaccurate polling during the Presidential election. :rolleyes:
• WebFire

  I Wear Pants;1516327 wrote:"Let's assume that in the future, Obama's no longer president, there's a Republican president. And we Democrats say, "We're not going to raise the debt ceiling unless you pass background checks. Eighty-five percent of the American people support that, and we are not going to raise the debt ceiling until you pass it." We cannot leave the full faith and credit of the United States subject to a fight over whatever the issue of the day may be. That has never, ever, in the history of the country been done before. This is the first time."
  
  And did you really think the Tea Party could take the White House? How? Their social issues kill them with anyone but right-wingers.

  A friend of mine used this example, and it is mostly fair for comparison sake. However, where it fails, is that the Repubs are using the debt ceiling as a defense because of the money ACA costs to run. So they will not agree to put it in the budget. In your example, the Dems would not be saving money, so it's not relevant to not raising the debt ceiling.
• I Wear Pants

  WebFire;1516381 wrote:A friend of mine used this example, and it is mostly fair for comparison sake. However, where it fails, is that the Repubs are using the debt ceiling as a defense because of the money ACA costs to run. So they will not agree to put it in the budget. In your example, the Dems would not be saving money, so it's not relevant to not raising the debt ceiling.

  So even if the Dems agree to a number for the budget with Republicans (which they did) then that number is invalid unless they also get rid of ACA?
• WebFire

  I Wear Pants;1516410 wrote:So even if the Dems agree to a number for the budget with Republicans (which they did) then that number is invalid unless they also get rid of ACA?

  The Repubs don't want to fund it all. My point is they are at least using a relevant avenue, even if we all know what they are really up to. Shutting down the gov't due to funding wouldn't have anything to do with gun control.
  
  Also, the Repubs offered a clear CR with the only exception that Congress couldn't be except from ACA. Dems denied it.
• jmog

  I Wear Pants;1516410 wrote:So even if the Dems agree to a number for the budget with Republicans (which they did) then that number is invalid unless they also get rid of ACA?

  Did you miss the fact that the Rs passed a clean CR with the only provision that all of Congress and their aides be fully subject to the ACA and then the Ds rejected it?
• pmoney25

  

  My hope is that with the disaster that is our government, it can create some sort of momentum for a legitimate third party.
• jmog

  pmoney25;1516447 wrote:My hope is that with the disaster that is our government, it can create some sort of momentum for a legitimate third party.

  
  
  LIBERTARIAN!
• pmoney25

  

  jmog;1516454 wrote:LIBERTARIAN!

  
  One can only dream.
• BGFalcons82

  

  pmoney25;1516457 wrote:One can only dream.

  Weird. Don't you have disdain for Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, and yet, they are the closest politicians to Libertarian views than anyone else?
  
  I agree the Libertarian movement has gained traction and it is making an impact on the Republican Party. I would also offer that the ObamaKare implementation and unworldly price hikes discovered over the past couple weeks have opened a lot of eyes of people that are sympathetic to Libertarian views. The Syrian "non-intervention" votes against Barry are also a stip in the right direction for Libertarian ideals. Yes, baby steps for now, but they were unheard of 5 years ago.