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Edward Snowden American hero or Government treason

  • gut
    BoatShoes;1456134 wrote:^^I was going to say this. Doesn't happen much and I think it has lead to some good debate.
    Well, it should be considering the practice dates to the Bush administration. And the recent scandals targeting conservatives only illustrates the potential for abuse. You have to be an ultra-partisan to think Republicans wouldn't (and haven't) done similar.

    But I saw a poll the other day and it illustrates why these practices continue: like a 20pt swing between Dems and Repubs on their view of these issues based on who is in office.

    Anyway, Rand Paul the last month is quietly arching his fingers and purring "Exxxxxceellllllentttt". The million dollar question may be if the Libertarian party can capitalize and organize to finally be relevant as a 3rd party, starting with the 2014 elections.
  • QuakerOats
    Funny how all the attention is now on him, as opposed to the tyrannical 'leaders' in D.C.

    If these recent and unimaginable crimes against Americans do not result in resignations beginning at the top, then something is terribly, terribly wrong in this country.
  • gut
    QuakerOats;1456143 wrote: If these recent and unimaginable crimes against Americans do not result in resignations beginning at the top, then something is terribly, terribly wrong in this country.
    Why do you expect resignations from this? It seems likely to be legal, although perhaps the Supreme Court will ultimately have something to say. It's more alarming, and potential for abuse greater...but in terms of legality/accountability it's really not on the same level as the other scandals. In other words, I think it's a rather benign overstepping (although we shall see) that needs to be addressed.
  • gport_tennis
    Whistle blowers usually blow the whistle at the risk of being blackballed from the industry they are in.

    It is likely that he would be tried on treason and given the death penalty. So I can understand why he would not sit by idly, while revealing the overstepping nature of the government
  • gut
    gport_tennis;1456149 wrote: It is likely that he would be tried on treason and given the death penalty.
    Good point. Although I would say the odds of that are slim to none. The American people would never stand for this guy getting the death penalty. Although it's probably unclear, at this stage, to say what, if any, protections he would receive as a whistleblower.
  • SportsAndLady
    gut;1456140 wrote:It's really not. He's outing people for "breaking the law" while simultaneously breaking it himself and seeking to avoid the consequences. In other words, guilty of the same things he's railing against them for doing.

    Assuming he's qualified and as good as his salary, he'll find an equivalent job. If he's not (and i.e. on his way out or being let go), it raises additional questions as to motive.

    I agree he's trying to avoid the consequences, there's no disputing that. The point is he isn't just coming out and revealing Obama is secretly a woman and then bailing when he got that information illegally and illegally released it to the public. He called out an entire government and one of their agencies on some foul, and corrupt play. He is helping Americans see that their privacy is being extorted and it could potentially lead to some dangerous times. He did all that while sacrificing what he had in life. That's patriotic, not selfless.
  • queencitybuckeye
    gut;1456151 wrote: The American people would never stand for this guy getting the death penalty.
    If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
  • BoatShoes
    gut;1456142 wrote:Well, it should be considering the practice dates to the Bush administration. And the recent scandals targeting conservatives only illustrates the potential for abuse. You have to be an ultra-partisan to think Republicans wouldn't (and haven't) done similar.

    But I saw a poll the other day and it illustrates why these practices continue: like a 20pt swing between Dems and Repubs on their view of these issues based on who is in office.

    Anyway, Rand Paul the last month is quietly arching his fingers and purring "Exxxxxceellllllentttt". The million dollar question may be if the Libertarian party can capitalize and organize to finally be relevant as a 3rd party, starting with the 2014 elections.
    Haha. We're a winner-take-all system so I doubt we'll see the libertarian party rise up over the Republican or Democratic parties but it'll be interesting to see if more libertarian/Rand Paulish type Republicans on National Security issues get elected in the wake of all this.
  • Belly35
    ptown_trojans_1;1456040 wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa.
    Where the hell was this for Bradley Manning?
    Explain to me the difference?
    Or, what about Daniel Ellsberg who released the Pentagon Papers?
    Or, Joe Darby, who released info on Abu Ghraib?

    I largely agree with you, we need people to speak out against what may be awful policies, but I failed to read the same language and argument during the Wikileaks, or other releases of information.

    The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
  • gut
    queencitybuckeye;1456157 wrote:If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
    When things become public, only then do they become political. How to deal with this guy would be a very sensitive issue. Secretly they (elected officials) probably hope he gets asylum somewhere and remains oversees.
  • gut
    BoatShoes;1456160 wrote:Haha. We're a winner-take-all system so I doubt we'll see the libertarian party rise up over the Republican or Democratic parties but it'll be interesting to see if more libertarian/Rand Paulish type Republicans on National Security issues get elected in the wake of all this.
    I don't disagree, but for the first time Americans (non-libertarians, anyway) are starting to pay real attention to Rand, and he's got the bully pulpit.
  • gut
    SportsAndLady;1456154 wrote:That's patriotic, not selfless.
    Well stated
  • ptown_trojans_1
    Belly35;1456161 wrote:The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
    Huh, Bradley Manning is making the same argument.
    I agree not all cases are alike. But, seems like one's man patriot is another man's criminal.
    ccrunner609;1456247 wrote:the guy only worked there for 3 months.......was making serious bank. He is working for bigger fish.
    Obviously you have no idea how federal contractors are paid.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    queencitybuckeye;1456157 wrote:If our leaders cared even a little about the will of the people, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
    Oh, isn't that easy in hindsight.
    But, it's not that simple, world is more complex, and blurry.
    Not saying this was right. Just saying I can easily see the rational.

    We have been doing this since WWII. Only now since the world is more connected, it has has impacted everyone.
  • Glory Days
    Belly35;1456161 wrote:The other examples are different. Some for profit, others where military security information to foreign countries, endangered innocent people, effecting national security. Where this is a direct unconstitutional act against the citizens of American, not for profit and to expose goverment agenda illegally gain information without the concent of the courts or the individial this is treason against the populist of our nation.
    illegally gain information? these documents were signed off on by judges. checks and balances at its finest. you may the think the program is wrong or whatever, but illegal no.
  • Glory Days
    gport_tennis;1456087 wrote:I did read that his gf is an "acrobatic pole dancer". Thought that was a funny discription
    check out the link for more photos

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/11/here-is-the-nsa-whistle-blowers-alleged-girlfriend-photos/

  • Glory Days
    I cant find the article i was reading this afternoon. but it basically said how he went about it all the wrong way and blew any chance at having whistleblower status.
  • gut
    Glory Days;1456499 wrote:I cant find the article i was reading this afternoon. but it basically said how he went about it all the wrong way and blew any chance at having whistleblower status.
    But still begs the question how he could have had "whistleblower" status in the first place if nothing was illegal.

    I have no idea how a legal, albeit likely unconstitutional, practice gets a determination from the Supreme Court when everything is classified top-secret.
  • QuakerOats
    gut;1456145 wrote:Why do you expect resignations from this?

    I didn't say I expect them; I implied they are warranted. And I did not mean to imply that resignations should stem only from this most recent government overreach, vs. the multitude of emerging scandals involving abuse of power by this regime.

    If Richard Nixon resigned over attempts to dig up mud on his political opponents, what should happen when tyrannical politicians and bureaucrats use the force of government to go after real Americans?
  • Heretic
    ptown_trojans_1;1456275 wrote:Obviously you have no idea how federal contractors are paid.
    Which means this is like virtually every other topic.
  • gport_tennis
    NSA leaker Snowden: ‘I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American.’

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nsa-leaker-snowden-m-no-traitor-no-hero-150110157.html
  • gport_tennis
    NSA leaker Snowden: ‘I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American.’

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nsa-leaker-snowden-m-no-traitor-no-hero-150110157.html
  • gut
    Can you be convicted as a traitor if the law/order you broke was unconstitutional?

    Also, is treason tried only by military tribunal? I don't imagine 12 jurors would convict him - tailor made case for jury nullification.
  • gut
    Hmmmm, well, now he's talking about the US cyber-spying efforts...definitely starting to venture into "traitor" territory
  • Glory Days
    gut;1457002 wrote:Hmmmm, well, now he's talking about the US cyber-spying efforts...definitely starting to venture into "traitor" territory
    yeah i think either he is hoping to get hong kong and china on his side by playing to them or there is more to it than just one man exposing an intelligence gathering program.

    i also saw that russia is willing to give him asylum.