The CT shooting and gun control
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WebFireI think we need to be quiet about the handgun stats. Don't give them any ideas!
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FatHobbit
I agree, but CNN is already running with it.WebFire;1376944 wrote:I think we need to be quiet about the handgun stats. Don't give them any ideas! -
WebFire
They would.FatHobbit;1376981 wrote:I agree, but CNN is already running with it. -
jhay78
FrankenFeinstein would've confiscated weapons back in '95 if she had 61 votes in the Senate:
http://www.therightscoop.com/dianne-feinstein-in-1995-i-would-have-confiscated-guns-if-i-could-have-gotten-the-votes/
All it takes is another tragedy for these people to exploit and twist for their ultimate purpose of eradicating the 2nd Amendment (even though they give it minimal lip service). Pretty much every Democrat will jump on board, a few spineless Republicans will join them, and then the entire country will safe, like Chicago. :thumbdown: -
QuakerOatsobama says he shoots skeet / puts out pic / it is a fake / he retracts it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/mag-pushes-fake-picture-obama-skeet-shooting_698730.html
What a complete jackarse.
60 million morons voted for him. -
BoatShoes
HE had nothing to do with the pic per your own link! With all of the liberals on the loose lately one would think you'd have better material...QuakerOats;1377054 wrote:obama says he shoots skeet / puts out pic / it is a fake / he retracts it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/mag-pushes-fake-picture-obama-skeet-shooting_698730.html
What a complete jackarse.
60 million morons voted for him.
You're taking your eye off the ball in the fight against marxist democrats guy. -
gutBetween all the golf and skeet shooting, wherever does Obama find the time to be POTUS?
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Manhattan BuckeyeMy guess is Obama has never fired a gun prior to being POTUS, and if he did after becoming POTUS was within a few feet of SS agents to show him how to do it.
I've never been a hunter, but I've fired a gun and you just don't fire a gun like it is a toy in an arcade. You have to respect what happens when you pull the trigger. You just don't go out and shoot skeet. This isn't a movie like "Wedding Crashers." -
QuakerOats
HE never has anything to do with anything ...... it is always somebody else's fault.BoatShoes;1377063 wrote:HE had nothing to do with the pic per your own link! -
Belly35
Chicago stick gun law don't protect public nor stops crime .. Chicago gun violence is the highest in the nation ... Killer kill, Mentally derange kill, Gangs kill, Illegal Kill, Drug Addicts kill, Career Criminal kill …. They don’t buy their guns the steal them, buy black market, illegal across the borders what to stop gun violence start with the individual not the weapon…
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/30/week-after-performing-at-obama-inaugural-events-teen-shot-dead-in-chicago/ -
BoatShoes
This has been covered earlier in the thread. It is obvious that city by city or state by state gun control is not going to work when free-flowing commerce occurs across these jurisdictional lines. You can get any gun you want into Chicago simply by crossing into the Gary in the pro-gun state of Indiana.Belly35;1377899 wrote:Chicago stick gun law don't protect public nor stops crime .. Chicago gun violence is the highest in the nation ... Killer kill, Mentally derange kill, Gangs kill, Illegal Kill, Drug Addicts kill, Career Criminal kill …. They don’t buy their guns the steal them, buy black market, illegal across the borders what to stop gun violence start with the individual not the weapon…
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/30/week-after-performing-at-obama-inaugural-events-teen-shot-dead-in-chicago/
If you're going to have strict gun control...it has to be done on a nationwide basis. Even then it'd be tough in the U.S. because there's already so many guns out there. -
BoatShoesHave to love Lamar Alexander blaming it on Video Games.
I'm sure the old white man who was a "law abiding gun owner"...up until he wasn't...gunned down the latinos in his drive way played all kinds of vidja games.
http://www.gadailynews.com/news/148877-lilburn-man-rodrigo-diaz-killed-after-pulling-into-wrong-driveway-friends-say.html
Gotta have them there guns though to protect my homestead!!! Sure he was a "law abiding citizen" most of his life.... -
Belly35
BoatShoes;1377913 wrote:Have to love Lamar Alexander blaming it on Video Games.
I'm sure the old white man who was a "law abiding gun owner"...up until he wasn't...gunned down the latinos in his drive way played all kinds of vidja games.
http://www.gadailynews.com/news/148877-lilburn-man-rodrigo-diaz-killed-after-pulling-into-wrong-driveway-friends-say.html
Gotta have them there guns though to protect my homestead!!! Sure he was a "law abiding citizen" most of his life....
Wow! One article is that it .... is that all you got
I read your article
Now you read mine with 25 example plus stats
http://www.akdart.com/med1.html -
BoatShoes
One article? It is one of over a thousand gun deaths that have happened since the Newton shooting...many of which have occurred at the hands of "law abiding gun owners" who, with a chattel designed to kill efficiently in their hands, become criminals in an instant when human error gets the best of them. Fear, Jealousy, Rage, Mistakes; these things turn people who are not evil into murderers when they have guns in their hands.Belly35;1378382 wrote:Wow! One article is that it .... is that all you got
I read your article
Now you read mine with 25 example plus stats
http://www.akdart.com/med1.html -
FatHobbit
Are you for banning all guns?BoatShoes;1378422 wrote:One article? It is one of over a thousand gun deaths that have happened since the Newton shooting...many of which have occurred at the hands of "law abiding gun owners" who, with a chattel designed to kill efficiently in their hands, become criminals in an instant when human error gets the best of them. Fear, Jealousy, Rage, Mistakes; these things turn people who are not evil into murderers when they have guns in their hands. -
WebFireI am stunned how hard it is to get ammo right now. Even handguns are getting hard to find. Glock has a 10 month back order for new orders right now.
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BoatShoes
I don't know what I am for as far as curbing gun violence goes in the United States. The plethora of guns, second amendment and unique affinity for firearms are significant factors to take into consideration. There are things I'd rather try before we start banning handguns, etc. For one I typically support pigovian taxes rather than "banning" things.FatHobbit;1378514 wrote:Are you for banning all guns?
I.E. Single-entry points in schools w/ no glass doors, federal funding for more police officers, drug legalization with the intent of curbing gang-related gun violence, strict liability for weapons manufacturers and resellers, pigovian bullet and firearm taxes, mental health evaluations + gun safety courses for people who want to buy guns, county-owned gun depots and armories as security against government tyranny, mandatory gun insurance, federal funding for smart gun technology...
I would rather see more regulation and try those types of things before we "ban" types of weapons or what have you...And I wish firearm enthusiasts would admit there is a problem and try to come on board rather than just declare that their 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed upon. There's ways we can regulate that right like we regulate our other fundamental rights. I don't think throwing up our hands and saying "problem of evil, nothing we can do" or just trying to encourage more and more guns, everywhere because "an armed society is a polite society" is a viable solution and will only result in more deaths due to negligence.
So, I'd rather try lots of things before banning guns. But, considering the successes other countries have had, if the States and the people spoke and repealed or altered the Second Amendment exhibiting a national momentum toward Japan style gun control...I wouldn't protest against it. -
O-Trap
Technically, I'd say a final cause for the creation of a gun is not exactly universal. As such, I'd say the most universal cause would be more of an efficient one: chattel designed to shoot metal projectiles a particular distance at a particular speed.BoatShoes;1378422 wrote:One article? It is one of over a thousand gun deaths that have happened since the Newton shooting...many of which have occurred at the hands of "law abiding gun owners" who, with a chattel designed to kill efficiently in their hands, become criminals in an instant when human error gets the best of them. Fear, Jealousy, Rage, Mistakes; these things turn people who are not evil into murderers when they have guns in their hands.
Whether guns are created for hunting, sport or recreational shooting, or manslaughter ... I daresay you'd be pretty hard-pressed to establish any proof behind such a universal claim to describe them.
As for human error getting the best of someone and turning them into a criminal, I think cars would be an apt comparison in that way. -
Con_Alma
...as are open boarders.BoatShoes;1378538 wrote:...The plethora of guns, second amendment and unique affinity for firearms are significant factors to take into consideration.. ...
I appreciate your stating the unique affinity for guns that we have as a country. -
tk421
and where is your cite for this? I would bet you that the majority of gun violence is not by "lawful" gun owners. The majority of gun violence is drug/gang related and uses stolen weapons bought on the black market.BoatShoes;1378422 wrote:One article? It is one of over a thousand gun deaths that have happened since the Newton shooting...many of which have occurred at the hands of "law abiding gun owners" who, with a chattel designed to kill efficiently in their hands, become criminals in an instant when human error gets the best of them. Fear, Jealousy, Rage, Mistakes; these things turn people who are not evil into murderers when they have guns in their hands. -
BoatShoes
I think you're right in your description in the ultimate essence of what a gun is. But I'm not sure that reduction gets us much farther.O-Trap;1378543 wrote:Technically, I'd say a final cause for the creation of a gun is not exactly universal. As such, I'd say the most universal cause would be more of an efficient one: chattel designed to shoot metal projectiles a particular distance at a particular speed.
Whether guns are created for hunting, sport or recreational shooting, or manslaughter ... I daresay you'd be pretty hard-pressed to establish any proof behind such a universal claim to describe them.
As for human error getting the best of someone and turning them into a criminal, I think cars would be an apt comparison in that way.
People carrying around chattels that fire projectiles at fast speeds are free to do this but there is little tangible utility and/or wealth gained by this behavior being widespread. When there is human error or fateful interventions of happenstance or malice aforethought, the harms caused greatly outweigh the marginal utility they bring which is merely pleasure to the chattel carriers.
People automobiles, a particular chattel that moves people and goods across great distances, easily and efficiently have a very great and tangible effect on increasing commerce, wealth and utility of our society as a whole way beyond whatever pleasure it might afford the user. When human error, fateful interventions of happenstance or malice aforethought intervene, the harms caused do not even come to outweighing the increase in utility we get by widespread automobile use.
So...I'm fine with saying that people ought to, as a general rule, have access to any gun they want simply because they want to and it brings them subjective happiness. However, at some point, if this subjective happiness is outweight by objective harms and there is not a concurrent objective good that does not outweigh that harm....I think it's time to at least consider the possibility of regulating in some way to reduce the objective harm. -
BoatShoes
I said "many" and I can think of several off the top of my head. The old guy shooting the mexican in his drive way. The guy shooting up his office building. The guy shooting people at the College in Texas. The school shooting in California. The old guy who shot his old wife because he "couldn't take it anymore." The kid in Cleveland who got blown away by his dad's gun in the back seat of his car. The dude who shot a guy on the side of a road because of road rage. That dude in Georgetown, Ohio who shot his son in the chest.tk421;1378578 wrote:and where is your cite for this? I would bet you that the majority of gun violence is not by "lawful" gun owners. The majority of gun violence is drug/gang related and uses stolen weapons bought on the black market.
Idiots are Idiots even if they're "law abiding" and when they have guns in their hands they become murderers. -
O-Trap
The only objection I have with that is that no single chattel can be said to cause the objective harm prior to its happening or outside the utilization of particular individuals. As such, what objective harm does exist is, I think, a reflection of the individual causing it, and not the vehicle used to exact it. The same gun in two different people's hands, can have drastically different effects in regard to harm.BoatShoes;1378598 wrote:I think you're right in your description in the ultimate essence of what a gun is. But I'm not sure that reduction gets us much farther.
People carrying around chattels that fire projectiles at fast speeds are free to do this but there is little tangible utility and/or wealth gained by this behavior being widespread. When there is human error or fateful interventions of happenstance or malice aforethought, the harms caused greatly outweigh the marginal utility they bring which is merely pleasure to the chattel carriers.
People automobiles, a particular chattel that moves people and goods across great distances, easily and efficiently have a very great and tangible effect on increasing commerce, wealth and utility of our society as a whole way beyond whatever pleasure it might afford the user. When human error, fateful interventions of happenstance or malice aforethought intervene, the harms caused do not even come to outweighing the increase in utility we get by widespread automobile use.
So...I'm fine with saying that people ought to, as a general rule, have access to any gun they want simply because they want to and it brings them subjective happiness. However, at some point, if this subjective happiness is outweight by objective harms and there is not a concurrent objective good that does not outweigh that harm....I think it's time to at least consider the possibility of regulating in some way to reduce the objective harm.
That's where I do think that the final cause CAN be established: with the person. And that is, I think, where the real danger lies.
As for the difference in utility, with automobiles it is an object of convenience to which we've grown accustomed. However, society can exist without them, and given the arbitrary nature by which we might try to quantify the convenience difference, I still see an apt comparison, though I admit it's not a perfect parallel, which you've pointed out rather well.
And I know I've said it before, but I'm rather convinced that guns as they exist today are sort of a parallel to Pandora's open box. Control and regulation would, I have a feeling, be nothing more than an exercise in futility. -
HitsRus
...and I appreciate your honesty and thoughtfulness in realizing that their are many facets to this problem of violence in this country, of which guns seem to be the weapon of choice. The arguement that we are having in this country and the polarization of people regarding this, is directly related to how the problem has been framed....i.e. 'it's a gun control problem, guns are to blame, magazine capacities, the NRA etc etc.. ...and that has provoked a defensive, knee jerk reaction among gun enthusiasts and Constitutionalists.(and rightfully so). This administration could not resist the opportunity to make Sandy Hook a weapon against it's political adversaries, and continues use its favorite strategy to divide America for its political gain. It has done this over and over, on entitlements, economics, class, gender, race. If this administration was REALLY interested in solving the problem, then he would be opening a dialogue to combat the problem of violence, rather than focusing on guns and making that the main thrust.I don't know what I am for as far as curbing gun violence goes in the United States. The plethora of guns, second amendment and unique affinity for firearms are significant factors to take into consideration. There are things I'd rather try before we start banning handguns, etc. For one I typically support pigovian taxes rather than "banning" things.