From my cold dead hand

• isadore

  Con_Alma;1156435 wrote:More exaggeration for effect.
  
  I do not want the safety nets destroyed. I want them changed. If they are not, they won't last. See the difference? Probabl ynot.

  It took awhile with statements like these hidden your true desire to cut the strands that make up America’s safety net

  Con_Alma wrote: What I dispute is that I am condemning such programs, which I have not.

  Con_Alma wrote: Have you found one post of mine stating that I would take benefits away from anyone? I didn't think so.

  Con_Alma wrote: I can't find one program that I have condemned. You must be exaggerating for effect.

  But finally under continuing cross examination the truth begin to out. A small part of your desire to hack away at it has shown itself. Hopefully soon the whole truth will out.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1156438 wrote:...such power is carried out through the channels of a Constitution the people put in place making our country a Constitutional Republic.

  From 1776 with the creation of the United States as an independent state. It was defined itself as a government created by the people, people being the ultimate power which the government served, with lawmaking by the people's representative, a representative democracy. That has continued through the articles of confederation, the constitution and whatever follows that. we continue to be a representative democracy.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1156521 wrote:It took awhile with statements like these hidden your true desire to cut the strands that make up America’s safety net
  
  
  
  But finally under continuing cross examination the truth begin to out. A small part of your desire to hack away at it has shown itself. Hopefully soon the whole truth will out.

  
  
  ???
  
  I don't want to "hack" away anything. That's more exaggeration for effect. If we don't change the current system it will not exist for those that need it.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1156523 wrote:From 1776 with the creation of the United States as an independent state. It was defined itself as a government created by the people, people being the ultimate power which the government served, with lawmaking by the people's representative, a representative democracy. That has continued through the articles of confederation, the constitution and whatever follows that. we continue to be a representative democracy.

  We are much more than just a re[Representative democracy. An even more descriptive definition is one that is inclusive of creating a document which divides and limits the power of the representatives elected by the people. By doing so, the government is best described as a Constitutional Republic.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1156725 wrote:???
  
  I don't want to "hack" away anything. That's more exaggeration for effect. If we don't change the current system it will not exist for those that need it.

  first you brag about how you don't condemn any program and how you willl not cut anyone's benefits. But now you are ready to cut away. Your feelings have shown yourself a latent hater of the social safety net that according to you reduces freedom and does not protect us from disaster. Now you are ready to cut away.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1156728 wrote:We are much more than just a re[Representative democracy. An even more descriptive definition is one that is inclusive of creating a document which divides and limits the power of the representatives elected by the people. By doing so, the government is best described as a Constitutional Republic.

  What an insult to government of government for the people, of the people and BY the people. The most important fact about our government is that it is a democracy not a theocracy, plutocracy. A truly new and revolutionary institution serving as a shining example for the world. Being a Democracy is the salient descriptive fact about our nation. We became one in 1776 and we remained that through the various transient documents used to create temporary governmental structures.
• dwccrew

  

  isadore;1156739 wrote:What an insult to government of government for the people, of the people and BY the people. The most important fact about our government is that it is a democracy not a theocracy, plutocracy. A truly new and revolutionary institution serving as a shining example for the world. Being a Democracy is the salient descriptive fact about our nation. We became one in 1776 and we remained that through the various transient documents used to create temporary governmental structures.

  I have always thought the United States was a representative democracy as well so your discussion with Con_Alma has interested me and I decided to research it a bit on the internet and here are some interesting pieces on the subject. It seems that all have the same understanding that the US is a Constitutional Republic, NOT a representative democracy. One of the articles even mentions how Congress has a bill that they are trying to pass to make it mandatory for schools to teach that the US is a constitutional republic, not a representative democracy. And the first line of the wikipedia page I have linked as the final link
  

  The federal government of the United States is the federal government of the constitutional republic of fifty states and one district that is the United States of America.

  So apparently you and I were both wrong, Isadore, the government of the United States is not a representative democracy but it actually is a constitutional republic. I guess we can still learn something new everyday.
  
  
  
  http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/NotDemocracy.html
  
  http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51248409-76/government-republic-bill-rep.html.csp
  
  http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States
• isadore

  dwccrew;1156760 wrote:I have always thought the United States was a representative democracy as well so your discussion with Con_Alma has interested me and I decided to research it a bit on the internet and here are some interesting pieces on the subject. It seems that all have the same understanding that the US is a Constitutional Republic, NOT a representative democracy. One of the articles even mentions how Congress has a bill that they are trying to pass to make it mandatory for schools to teach that the US is a constitutional republic, not a representative democracy. And the first line of the wikipedia page I have linked as the final link
  
  
  
  So apparently you and I were both wrong, Isadore, the government of the United States is not a representative democracy but it actually is a constitutional republic. I guess we can still learn something new everyday.
  
  
  
  http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/NotDemocracy.html
  
  http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51248409-76/government-republic-bill-rep.html.csp
  
  http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States

  Check who your sources are. When someone quotes Tom Tancredo, take a step back.
  1. The writer is Daneen Peterson, PHD, Sounds good right, she is a PHD in “behavioral science research methodology and statistics. And now at this far right flake site
  http://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/Home/Articles/Params/arcticlecategory/1730/default.aspx
  With their ravings about the coming North American Union
  2. That it is being pushed by a group of right wing legislators in Utah is hardly a surprise. They are ignorant ideologues. They passed a bill requiring pregnant women “
  to view the heartbeat of their fetus before an abortion -- at three weeks. Here comes the stupid:A fetus does not have a heart at three weeks, much less a heartbeat. A human embryo at three weeks is about a millimeter long. Good luck detecting a heartbeat.” They are ideological idiots
  http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/02/utah_legislature_shows_scienti.php
  Then the uncited raving of the inconsequential Hamilton Abert Long, what training makes him a Constitutional Scholar, where are his citation to sources as a scholar uses. He is a dead flake.
  Democracy is rule by the people. In 1776 we broke from Great Britain. The people become sovereign”
  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
  http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html
  The representatives of the people form set up a transient governmental institutions, the states and the Articles of Confederation/http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/artconf.asp
  It fails them and is done away with.
  The representatives of the people create set up a new set of transient institutions. Who has the ultimate power “We the People” and in the document they have the right to do away with any institution listed and with any right given. There is an allowance for representation in the Senate by states, but the Senate itself can be abolished and beyond that the people can throw out the entire document.
  From 1776 on we have ultimately been a representative government with the people not some document as the ultimate power, a representative democracy.
  http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html
  
• dwccrew

  

  Just admit your wrong and move on. The country is a constitutional republic.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1156738 wrote:first you brag about how you don't condemn any program and how you willl not cut anyone's benefits. But now you are ready to cut away. Your feelings have shown yourself a latent hater of the social safety net that according to you reduces freedom and does not protect us from disaster. Now you are ready to cut away.

  Change them so they last.
  
  I don't know If I've ever hated something...especially a government program!. That just seems a little silly to me.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1156739 wrote:... The most important fact about our government is that it is a democracy not a theocracy, plutocracy...

  Lol.
  
  You live in a fantasy world. We are certainly not a democracy. We have democratic features but we are a Constitutional Republic.
• dwccrew

  

  Con_Alma;1157400 wrote:Lol.
  
  You live in a fantasy world. We are certainly not a democracy. We have democratic features but we are a Constitutional Republic.

  I've already pointed that out with evidence to Isadore, but Isadore lives in some alternate universe. Better to ignore the troll and carry on with your life. I don't think Isadore is any more than a character on this website, there is no way someone is that delusional.
• isadore

  America was born a democracy before there ever was a constitution, and it remains a democracy. the Constitution is a transient document describing temporary institutions that are completely under the will of the people.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157398 wrote:Change them so they last.
  
  I don't know If I've ever hated something...especially a government program!. That just seems a little silly to me.

  gosh you down play their importance to the people, you accuse them of causing dependence. And then you want to hack away at them. T
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157417 wrote:gosh you down play their importance to the people, you accuse them of causing dependence. And then you want to hack away at them. T

  They are important.
  
  They can and do cause dependency.
  
  I would like to see them changed from their current format.
  
  Yes, these are my views.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157416 wrote:America was born a democracy before there ever was a constitution, and it remains a democracy. the Constitution is a transient document describing temporary institutions that are completely under the will of the people.

  How it was born doesn't determine what it is today. The transient document you speak of limit the pure democracy it can have. The people chose for it to be that way. They wanted a Constitutional Republic.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157499 wrote:How it was born doesn't determine what it is today. The transient document you speak of limit the pure democracy it can have. The people chose for it to be that way. They wanted a Constitutional Republic.

  ultimately it puts no limits on the power of the people because they can throw it out whenever they so desire as they threw out the Articles of Confederation. There is no limit on the power of the people that is listed in the Constitution that can not be removed by the people. NONE. People have the ultimate power, their representatives act for them. We have been since 1776 above all else a representative democracy. People's rule is overarching all else is transient and secondary in the history of the United States.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157497 wrote:They are important.
  
  They can and do cause dependency.
  
  I would like to see them changed from their current format.
  
  Yes, these are my views.

  "very basic things " we can see what you want provided for those on social security, the disabled, poor children. the very basics for survival. If we provide them with 2000 calories a day it should provide the minimal cost you hope for.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157531 wrote:"very basic things " we can see what you want provided for those on social security, the disabled, poor children. the very basics for survival. If we provide them with 2000 calories a day it should provide the minimal cost you hope for.

  I don't know about 2000 calories per day but yes they should have the basic things provided with these safety nets.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157523 wrote:ultimately it puts no limits on the power of the people because they can throw it out whenever they so desire as they threw out the Articles of Confederation. There is no limit on the power of the people that is listed in the Constitution that can not be removed by the people. NONE. People have the ultimate power, their representatives act for them. We have been since 1776 above all else a representative democracy. People's rule is overarching all else is transient and secondary in the history of the United States.

  It ay not put limits of power but it still "puts" and the fact that it does is part of what makes the country a Constitutional Republic. The people have chose for the Constitution to be the reference for action.
• isadore

  they can chose and they can chose not to through. they are the ultimate power not the document. the people chose to have a National Bank of the United States to control finances, then they did away with it because they had in democracy has the power, they set up a Office of Price Administration to set prices for the economy then they did away with it. They set up the Articles of Confederation then they did away with it because they had the power in our representative democracy. and then WE THE PEOPLE ordained the Constitution and they can do away with it because they have the power in our representative democracy.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157534 wrote:I don't know about 2000 calories per day but yes they should have the basic things provided with these safety nets.

  2000 calories is spoiling them, the North Korean have done the work on this, they have provided you with what is needed for basics.
• Con_Alma

  Limits have nothing todowith it.
  
  The document being put into place, it's existance is what makes us a Constitional Republic. Until and if there ever comes a day when we "do away with it" we are a Constitutional Republic.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157566 wrote:2000 calories is spoiling them, ...

  Says you. I personally don't know what or if a caloric figure is needed or should be referred to at ll.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157568 wrote:Limits have nothing todowith it.
  
  The document being put into place, it's existance is what makes us a Constitional Republic. Until and if there ever comes a day when we "do away with it" we are a Constitutional Republic.

  The OVERARCHING description of who we are is a representative democracy with the people having the power to undo any temporary legislation.