From my cold dead hand

• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157572 wrote:Says you. I personally don't know what or if a caloric figure is needed or should be referred to at ll.

  since you want to cut everyone to the basics these are things you should be finding out. what is the minimal pay we can give a soldier for putting his\her life on the line for our country. What is the minimal amount of shelter, medical care and food you can provide to the aged, handicapped nd children and still survive while we take income tax from them.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157583 wrote:The OVERARCHING description of who we are is a representative democracy with the people having the power to undo any temporary legislation.

  That's not accurate enough which is why legalese define it as a Constitutional Republic.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157589 wrote:since you want to cut everyone to the basics these are things you should be finding out. what is the minimal pay we can give a soldier for putting his\her life on the line for our country. What is the minimal amount of shelter, medical care and food you can provide to the aged, handicapped nd children and still survive while we take income tax from them.

  I elect people to find these things out.
  
  Whether I "should" be finding them out or not, I choose not to.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  You can debate about whether or not you agree with the bastardization of our system of government over the last 150+ years and think it was a good thing, but it is completely incorrect and ignorant to claim that this country was founded as a democracy. Just ask the people who founded it.
  
  “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  “Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” - John Adams
  
  “The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
  
  "The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived." - John Quincy Adams
  
  "Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrant." - James Madison
  
  "We are a Republican Government, Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy...it has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity." - Alexander Hamilton
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157592 wrote:That's not accurate enough which is why legalese define it as a Constitutional Republic.

  you mean you prefer "language containing an excessive amount of legal terminology or of legal jargon" used to hide the true meaning. In this case the true description of the government of the United States is and has been since 1776 a representative democracy.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157621 wrote:you mean you prefer "language containing an excessive amount of legal terminology or of legal jargon" used to hide the true meaning. In this case the true description of the government of the United States is and has been since 1776 a representative democracy.

  I prefer the accurate, full explanation which is a Constitutional Republic.
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157597 wrote:I elect people to find these things out.
  
  Whether I "should" be finding them out or not, I choose not to.

  now it is hardly a surprise that you would not wish to know the amount of suffering your suggestions would inflict on the aged, the disabled and the children. You just wash your hands of them.
• Con_Alma

  Cleveland Buck;1157615 wrote:You can debate about whether or not you agree with the bastardization of our system of government over the last 150+ years and think it was a good thing, but it is completely incorrect and ignorant to claim that this country was founded as a democracy. Just ask the people who founded it.
  
  ...

  Did someone claim that this country wasn't founded as a democracy?? I didn't see that.
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157623 wrote:now it is hardly a surprise that you would not wish to know the amount of suffering your suggestions would inflict on the aged, the disabled and the children. You just wash your hands of them.

  I wish to know. I just don't wish to determine what it is. I elect others to do that.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  Con_Alma;1157625 wrote:Did someone claim that this country wasn't founded as a democracy?? I didn't see that.

  Yes.
  

  isadore;1156523 wrote:From 1776 with the creation of the United States as an independent state. It was defined itself as a government created by the people, people being the ultimate power which the government served, with lawmaking by the people's representative, a representative democracy. That has continued through the articles of confederation, the constitution and whatever follows that. we continue to be a representative democracy.

• isadore

  Cleveland Buck;1157615 wrote:You can debate about whether or not you agree with the bastardization of our system of government over the last 150+ years and think it was a good thing, but it is completely incorrect and ignorant to claim that this country was founded as a democracy. Just ask the people who founded it.
  
  “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  “Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” - John Adams
  
  “The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
  
  "The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived." - John Quincy Adams
  
  "Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrant." - James Madison
  
  "We are a Republican Government, Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy...it has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity." - Alexander Hamilton

  start with how about some citations or sources.
• Con_Alma

  Cleveland Buck;1157627 wrote:Yes.

  Oh, my. I missed that. Thank you.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  isadore;1157628 wrote:start with how about some citations or sources.

  The source for the Hamilton quote is the Federalist Papers. You can look for the others if you wish.
• majorspark

  

  isadore;1157523 wrote:There is no limit on the power of the people that is listed in the Constitution that can not be removed by the people. NONE.

  If the people want to change the Constitution there is a process for doing so. You will have to get the approval of 38 states in order to do so. If some people insist on changing the Constitution outside that process the people also hold another power. The ultimate power to throw off the usurpers as the founders did.
• dwccrew

  

  isadore;1157416 wrote:America was born a democracy before there ever was a constitution, and it remains a democracy. the Constitution is a transient document describing temporary institutions that are completely under the will of the people.

  See the ownage of you below.
  

  Cleveland Buck;1157615 wrote:You can debate about whether or not you agree with the bastardization of our system of government over the last 150+ years and think it was a good thing, but it is completely incorrect and ignorant to claim that this country was founded as a democracy. Just ask the people who founded it.
  
  “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  “Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” - John Adams
  
  “The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
  "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin
  
  "The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived." - John Quincy Adams
  
  "Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrant." - James Madison
  
  "We are a Republican Government, Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy...it has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity." - Alexander Hamilton

  Reps
  

  isadore;1157628 wrote:start with how about some citations or sources.

  
  LOL, here comes the backtracking. "Let me see some citations or sources." If you weren't so lazy in the first place you could have easily found those and not make yourself look foolish in continually arguing the wrong point. But how could I expect someone not to be lazy that wants everyone else to take care of them and all the other lazy people in this country?
• isadore

  dwccrew;1157845 wrote:See the ownage of you below.
  
  
  
  Reps
  
  
  
  LOL, here comes the backtracking. "Let me see some citations or sources." If you weren't so lazy in the first place you could have easily found those and not make yourself look foolish in continually arguing the wrong point. But how could I expect someone not to be lazy that wants everyone else to take care of them and all the other lazy people in this country?

  lol read and learn little man.
• isadore

  majorspark;1157650 wrote:If the people want to change the Constitution there is a process for doing so. You will have to get the approval of 38 states in order to do so. If some people insist on changing the Constitution outside that process the people also hold another power. The ultimate power to throw off the usurpers as the founders did.

  Gosh a ruddies the Articles of Confederation Articles required a vote of all 13 states in order to amend the document. The Representatives of the People got to together and just threw the whole document out. As the People's Representatives can throw out the whole Constitution
• Con_Alma

  isadore;1157916 wrote:Gosh a ruddies the Articles of Confederation Articles required a vote of all 13 states in order to amend the document. The Representatives of the People got to together and just threw the whole document out. As the People's Representatives can throw out the whole Constitution

  The point is, they haven't. It' existence heeds further clarification of the form of government we have.
  
  Why the sarcastic name calling? I thought we were having a good discussion.
• isadore

  Gosh a ruddies there is reason that educated people ask for citations. To check on statements. To see if they reflect the context, if they reflect other statements made by the person quoted and even more basically if they are not a complete lie. So let us just take the first quote used by Cleveland Buck.
  “
  A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson”
  
  Does not seem to exist, not in the most extensive list of Tjs quotes at the University of Virginia.
  http://guides.lib.virginia.edu/TJ
  http://www.cronaca.com/archives/003038.html
  “Needless to say, the denigration of democracy as mob rule would not be a sentiment to be expected from the likes of Jefferson. And sure enough, the passage is nowhere to be found on the site, striking though it is -- striking enough to demand inclusion (if genuine) if only to be placed in context”
  　
  Lets go for Jefferson’s opinion about rule by people,
  Democracy
  "The will of the people... is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801. ME 10:236
  "The measures of the fair majority... ought always to be respected." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:397
  "[We acknowledge] the principle that the majority must give the law." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1788. ME 7:28
  "This... [is] a country where the will of the majority is the law, and ought to be the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:85
  "The fundamental principle of [a common government of associated States] is that the will of the majority is to prevail." --Thomas Jefferson to William Eustis, 1809.
  "The voice of the majority decides. For the lex majoris partis is the law of all councils, elections, etc., where not otherwise expressly provided." --Thomas Jefferson: Parliamentary Manual, 1800. ME 2:420
  "It is the multitude which possess force, and wisdom must yield to that." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:492
  "If the measures which have been pursued are approved by the majority, it is the duty of the minority to acquiesce and conform." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1811. ME 13:51
  "Every man's reason [is] his own rightful umpire. This principle, with that of acquiescence in the will of the majority, will preserve us free and prosperous as they are sacredly observed." --Thomas Jefferson to John F. Watson, 1814. ME 14:136 \
  "[With a majority] having declared against [our proposal], we must suppose we are wrong, according to the fundamental law of every society, the lex majoris partis, to which we are bound to submit." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:324
  This is why we check citation, to catch liars, incompetents and the intellectually lazy
  　
  
• Al Bundy

  isadore;1157937 wrote: This is why we check citation, to catch liars, incompetents and the intellectually lazy
  　
  

  Aren't liars, incompetents, and the intellectually lazy the people that you have been trying to defend?
• isadore

  Con_Alma;1157922 wrote:The point is, they haven't. It' existence heeds further clarification of the form of government we have.
  
  Why the sarcastic name calling? I thought we were having a good discussion.

  The point is that the people retain the power and have used it. The overarching control belongs to WE THE PEOPLE and their representative
  gosh a ruddies is sarcastic, I thought of it as a rather innocent exclamatory phrase. I think you are a very intelligent person. Some of your beliefs are troubling to me.
• isadore

  Al Bundy;1157944 wrote:Aren't liars, incompetents, and the intellectually lazy the people that you have been trying to defend?

  what an interesting way to describe the aged, the handicapped and the children lacking resource. Which category would most fit them liars, sure little kids often stretch the truth, an many of those older altzheimer patiens you might consider intellectually lazy and some of those handicapped maybe incompetent at dancing.
• Al Bundy

  isadore;1157952 wrote:what an interesting way to describe the aged, the handicapped and the children lacking resource. Which category would most fit them liars, sure little kids often stretch the truth, an many of those older altzheimer patiens you might consider intellectually lazy and some of those handicapped maybe incompetent at dancing.

  I was referring to the healthy adults who choose not to work because they live a pretty good life by choosing not to work.
• isadore

  Al Bundy;1157956 wrote:I was referring to the healthy adults who choose not to work because they live a pretty good life by choosing not to work.

  I think you would find the bulk of people on benefits fall into one of the three categories I listed.
  we have the unemployed mostly put there by structural and cyclical unemployment, I guess you want to punish them. And of course we have alot of single mothers, we can punish them. Gosh we got Romney and his wife wanted her to stay at home while he requires these women to work.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  isadore;1157937 wrote: This is why we check citation, to catch liars, incompetents and the intellectually lazy
  

  What about the other quotes? Any one of them individually proves you wrong, so please explain away all of them.