Describe How You Think a Merit Based Pay System Would Work

• queencitybuckeye

  BRF;757664 wrote:My time? Quite possibly the union doing a better job than I alone with steps set up, etc.?
  
  And, oh, I have done my time by being on the union negotiating team. I did good. It's a good feeling to be able to help out your colleagues, as well as yourself. I feel that many of you union haters don't understand that.....helping others.

  
  The flaw in your logic is that for anyone you helped, someone else got hurt. At best you broke even in that regard.
• Glory Days

  

  WebFire;758030 wrote:So your "fine" city was being funded by the state? And now that they have to do it more on their own they can't pay for themselves? Do you not see why we are in this mess?

  
  i am not an expert on city governments, but i wonder how many things cities spend money on are required to be done because the state says so? and cities must provide certain services to its citizens. those services must be provided no matter how shitty the economy is etc. for the 4002nd time, governments are not a business.
  
  do i not see why we are in this mess, yeah, the private sector destroyed the economy and is now "taxing" the public sector to make up for it.
• WebFire

  Glory Days;758045 wrote:i am not an expert on city governments, but i wonder how many things cities spend money on are required to be done because the state says so? and cities must provide certain services to its citizens. those services must be provided no matter how shitty the economy is etc. for the 4002nd time, governments are not a business.
  
  do i not see why we are in this mess, yeah, the private sector destroyed the economy and is now "taxing" the public sector to make up for it.

  
  I don't disagree the private sector has issues that contribute to the mess. Please don't think that I blame everything on public sector, or that SB5 fixes it all. SB5 is just a drop in the bucket.
  
  Anyhow, cities need to be able to support themselves. Local issues require local funds. They shouldn't be dependent on the state to fund things. The people will get the services they are willing to pay for. Want good fire protection? Pay the tax to get a full-time department. Don't have the tax base for it? Have a volunteer department.
  
  The problem is, people want stuff they can't afford, and want someone else to pay for it.
• Belly35

  

  Today in this area there are 8-9 school district asking for the passage of operational levy on the ballot.
  Traditionally I would vote for the school levy … but not this time and not in the near future.
  
  What the system and the Unions what is for we the tax payers to pay for what we don’t believe in or support.
  
  Why should I support school levy and teacher salaries that are Union members when I see no benefit to me the tax payer?
  
  Can one of you Union Teacher tell me what my benefit is to support you as a Union member?
• Con_Alma

  WebFire;758077 wrote:...
  
  The problem is, people want stuff they can't afford, and want someone else to pay for it.

  This is so very true in so many areas of our society.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  WebFire;758077 wrote:Anyhow, cities need to be able to support themselves.

  
  This brings up a good point. The school districts that will be hurt the most b/c of SB5 will be the SD's that receive the most state support, and that is up to the district. We are very fortunate in that we abide by what I've quoted you saying. Our district really does not rely on that much state support, so we will not have as much cut as other districts. There are MANY districts out there who are going to feel some tremendous pain b/c of their dependence on state support. I know that each community is different, but I'm glad that we don't rely on the state that much! (very, very little).
• sleeper

  

  WebFire;758077 wrote:The problem is, people want stuff they can't afford, and want someone else to pay for it.

  
  A+, would read again.
• Con_Alma

  In general I agree with your statement ernest but taking more than $5,000.00 per student from your district would still have to sting a bit.
  
  I agree with the fact that there are poorer communities that will feel State funding cuts more than others. Those are the communities than need the flexibility that SB5 provides.
  
  It's good that your community supports the educational system like it sounds they do but I believe that they still receive maybe a little less than half of the per pupil spending from the State, do they not? Doesn't the State provide more than $5,000.00 per student to your school? Wouldn't it sting to have to make up that amount in the community?
• dwccrew

  

  Glory Days;758028 wrote:Yup, my bad. The job loss will be the results of the millions of dollars worth of funding Kasich is cutting to cities, not SB5. Although I think SB5 is the result of him cutting the funding, he is trying to fix the state while putting the burden on the cities. I know my city was doing fine(fine is a relative term if you know about my city), then Kasich cut the funding and now lay offs will be taking place soon to make up for 1-2 million lost in funding.
  
  

  
  
  So the cities will have to pay for themselves rather than having the state step in and help? What a concept.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Estimated cuts to our district is $300,000. Many districts, even small districts, with numbers in the millions.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/ohio_schools_face_loss_of_stat.html
• Glory Days

  

  WebFire;758077 wrote: Anyhow, cities need to be able to support themselves. Local issues require local funds. They shouldn't be dependent on the state to fund things. The people will get the services they are willing to pay for. Want good fire protection? Pay the tax to get a full-time department. Don't have the tax base for it? Have a volunteer department.
  
  The problem is, people want stuff they can't afford, and want someone else to pay for it.

  So cities that are poor, don’t have the tax base etc. should just be allowed to crumble and rot?

  dwccrew;758128 wrote:So the cities will have to pay for themselves rather than having the state step in and help? What a concept.

  When the time comes, are you going to vote to increase taxes to continue the services you have now? doubt it. its funny, people arent complaining about the services their city provides now. but all of a sudden they will be.

  Belly35;758088 wrote:Today in this area there are 8-9 school district asking for the passage of operational levy on the ballot.
  Traditionally I would vote for the school levy … but not this time and not in the near future.
  What the system and the Unions what is for we the tax payers to pay for what we don’t believe in or support.
  Why should I support school levy and teacher salaries that are Union members when I see no benefit to me the tax payer?
  Can one of you Union Teacher tell me what my benefit is to support you as a Union member?

  This is why SB5 needs repealed. You’ll have someone like Belly go up to his school board and say he doesn’t want teacher X being paid what he/she gets paid because Belly doesn’t think teacher X is a good teacher. (or vice versa and he'll want teacher Y paid more because their buddies)
  Belly, do you even know what the teachers in your district get paid or what their graduation rate is? Or are you just not voting for it because they are the evil union?
• WebFire

  Glory Days;758237 wrote:So cities that are poor, don’t have the tax base etc. should just be allowed to crumble and rot?

  I'd rather pay higher local tax and take care of my own town, then to pay higher state tax to take care of everyone else's town.
• BRF

  

  Glory Days;758237 wrote: You’ll have someone like Belly go up to his school board and say he doesn’t want teacher X being paid what he/she gets paid because Belly doesn’t think teacher X is a good teacher. (or vice versa and he'll want teacher Y paid more because their buddies)

  
  Exactly.
• Belly35

  

  I do know what teachers in my school make, I also know that the highest paid teacher is a music teacher. He earns it and works hard at teaching the kids and providing events to show off their skills and talents. Good teacher should be rewarded..
  There are other teacher that also do a great job, however we also know of many that should not be teaching ..ever.
  However it goes deeper than that… As a owner of two business and I see the income level of myself and employees dropping and the cost of living moving up ..it is hard to justify why the school, unions and teacher should be so privilege to take from my wallet because they feel they should not lose what benefits they have. I have lost much more that benefits and my employees have also lost.. where do we go to get a levy for operation cost? Paid sick days accumulated, vacation days accumulated and an additional 15 day per school year paid.
  
  The problem here is simple when things where good nobody thought about what would happen when the bottom falls out …. Wake-up the bottom has dropped out…
  
  The public can’t afford the Union mentality of taking and milking the public earners.
  
  Any organization that makes someone join and pay dues un-willingly … is taking away the Freedoms that America was founded on.
  
  I support kids and believe in the education of kids …. I was a successful, respected teacher.
  I love being a teacher because I loved teaching ….. not the money, sick day or perks … it was all about the kids. My skills would be rewarded .. and in my five years of teaching I was paid more that others that started the same time …
  
  When you're the best at your craft the money and perks come .... you don't need a Union to pump up your ego or salaries.. the parents, student and staff will have your back....
  
  I support good teacher and good people .... BRF ... we may not agree on this .... but as a friend I got your back and would support you as a teacher..
• sleeper

  

  Glory Days;758237 wrote: This is why SB5 needs repealed. You’ll have someone like Belly go up to his school board and say he doesn’t want teacher X being paid what he/she gets paid because Belly doesn’t think teacher X is a good teacher. (or vice versa and he'll want teacher Y paid more because their buddies)

  Because that's EXACTLY how its going to work. :rolleyes:
• Writerbuckeye

  

  One thing SB 5 has done is show me how truly gutless too many of our educators are.
  
  Seriously, they are like a bunch of scared little bunnies running around.
  
  First it was the terror of having to actually stand up for yourself and let your administrators know why you're a good teacher and deserving of better pay.
  
  Then it was (maybe still is) the abject horror of having to come up with a way to actually evaluate individual teachers for merit raises instead of just lumping them together like cattle and throwing the same dollar amount at them.
  
  Now it's a deathly fear of having a parent come in and say one teacher is better than another and deserves better pay -- and it might happen.
  
  GASP!
  
  I don't know how some of you sleep at night without a strong dose of anti-anxiety meds or sleeping pills.
• Glory Days

  

  sleeper;758404 wrote:Because that's EXACTLY how its going to work. :rolleyes:

  
  I've seen people take the school board to court when little suzie didnt get picked to be a cheerleader......lets just say, little suzie made the cheer team. you dont think that could happen with a specific teacher like i pointed out?
• BRF

  

  Belly35;758403 wrote:
  I support good teacher and good people .... BRF ... we may not agree on this .... but as a friend I got your back and would support you as a teacher..

  Belly, you are a good man, my pal, and I hear what you say. We will just agree to disagree on this.
  
  AND.........my "goings on" on this thread are not meant to change anyone's minds. BRF knows that everybody has the right to say what they want. My posts are made to support the teachers, along with the cops and the fire fighters, etc. Am I not allowed that right? I have been attacked with name calling on several posts. (OK.....I, in return, did call those perceived attacks "bullying")
  
  But when a person on our side is said to be "worthless", "can't you speak for yourself", "scared little bunnies", "gutless"...............that is hard to take without retorts.
  
  Here's another try at an explanation: teachers around my age went to college to get their degree and go into a profession that they NUMBER 1: wanted to help kids and NUMBER 2: make a good living with the way things were set up. (and it wasn't even considered that good at the time compared to going into the private sector) NOW, we are being attacked and having the THREAT of it taken away............to help make things more "equal". And then these proponents of SB5 want us to just lay down and take it because it is the "right thing to do". And that is where the bullying comes in. This "brow beating" by the SB5 people is getting really tiresome, but keep up the good fight. We will see in November. You try to take something away from me that I've earned?.......I know, the detractors will say that I didn't "earn" it, it was given to me.......by the union....... BUT there will be a fight. It's too bad there aren't more union people on here to read about how big of morons and stealers that they are. Belly, I believe that if you had a set up like me and have it threatened to be taken away.........you would fight it.....I truly believe that, pal. And I know that you would have my back as a teacher, but I'm saying that that is the problem with a merit pay system.....it's "who you know and who you blow". And I agree that there are bad teachers, but there are ways of getting them out, even if they have tenure. The problem is that those "ways" are often not used. Belly, I pay a lot of property tax and when I retire and IF SB5 goes into effect, I would also be right down at the board office to give my opinion on who is good and who is not AND that I expect them to do something about it.
  
  ANYHOW........
  
  Keep pounding away, SB5 supporters. You will not change our minds, and we will not change yours.
• dwccrew

  

  Glory Days;758237 wrote:
  When the time comes, are you going to vote to increase taxes to continue the services you have now? doubt it. its funny, people arent complaining about the services their city provides now. but all of a sudden they will be.
  

  
  Voted on the school levy just today in my town. Guess which way I voted.....
• sleeper

  

  Glory Days;758642 wrote:I've seen people take the school board to court when little suzie didnt get picked to be a cheerleader......lets just say, little suzie made the cheer team. you dont think that could happen with a specific teacher like i pointed out?

  
  And the school board is just going to throw their hands up in the air and listen to some random person? You're being a little overly dramatic.
• majorspark

  

  dwccrew;758693 wrote:Voted on the school levy just today in my town. Guess which way I voted.....

  
  I voted on my school levy today as well. I voted the same as you.
• wkfan

  sleeper;758702 wrote:And the school board is just going to throw their hands up in the air and listen to some random person? You're being a little overly dramatic.

  
  
  Not overly dramatic....just realistic.
  
  I've seen things like the cheerleader thing happen.....and it will happen when a teacher tells Mrs. Perfect that her little Johnny Perfect or Sally Perfect isn't....perfect.
  
  I have no issues with parents being able to discuss a teacher's performance with the school principal and on up the chain of command. That is how it should work and how it works today. Should the teacher be found to be in the wrong, it should be part of their performance review. However, I do have an issue with parents having a say in teachers performance reviews via a survey or some other type of formal and anonymous mechanism. There are just too many times that parents get emotional and bent out of shape when you are telling them that their children have a flaw that they lose all rational thought.....
• ernest_t_bass

  

  To say that those types of things in school boards DON'T happen is pure naivety. You see it happen more with coaches, where a school board or a super's kid isn't getting to play much, or getting the short end of the stick... the coach is let go. Look at Archbold girl's basketball for a perfect example (and baseball for that matter) when Scoop Miller was let go. He still teaches within the district, but there was a board member whose daughter wasn't getting to play what he thought she should. The coach was eventually let go... and he has STATE experience in both sports! lol.
  
  It happens, and to say it doesn't shows a disconnection b/t the public and the school.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  ernest_t_bass;759248 wrote:It happens, and to say it doesn't shows a disconnection b/t the public and the school.

  Would you be willing to admit that there's a disconnection between the taxpayer and the unions?