District Shockers!!

• shootingstar

  tayse ove robertson d1 mentor 189
• oldcoach3

  Refman is a fine official but that is still no excuse for what went on at Darby,it was one of the worst displays of overall officiating I have seen in many years. Sitting with many people that have witnessed years of wrestling were scratching their heads .."this is the best Central Oho has"? I know officiating is difficult and mistakes are made,but when entire seasons are on the line those boys,coaches, and parents deserved better. Good luck to all our Central Ohio boys !!!
• Newbie

  I am amazed at the total lack of respect for the officials on this site. If you see a call you disagree with, and want to question that call, that is one thing. But to resort to name-calling? To question call after call? To take it to a personal level and attack someone's integrity?? That is just an ugly display of immaturity. These kids were given the top officials in central ohio, some of whom are commonly reffing NCAA matches. They know the rules and apply the rules. They make calls based on criteria. I wonder if some of these comments are made by people who have never even read the rule book? I would venture to say yes. These officials give their time and energy and put themselves out there because of a love of this sport. No official wants to make a bad call. It happens, but it is not because they want to "screw a kid out of a chance at States". It happens because they are human. These guys have dedicated a big part of their lives to become good at what they do. And you don't get invited to officiate NCAA Div. I matches by being arrogant, and pompous. You get there because you know the rules and enforce them properly. What exactly were you all looking for?
• lowsingle174

  Newbie, I can see where you are coming from and I respect that. On the other hand people have the right to come to a message board and say what they are feeling, and the are allowed to state opinions. Officials, just like coaches and wrestlers are in the public eye. They will be scrutinized for what they do right and what they do wrong. It is part of the game. There are a lot of haters on this site, there are also a lot of supporters. Either way you are going to see both sides of any given argument for the most part.
  
  
  I simply live by one rule:
  "Never argue with an idiot because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
  
  I guess you can take it for what it is worth, and no, I am not calling you an idiot!
• Newbie

  I simply live by one rule:
  "Never argue with an idiot because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
  
  This is my favorite new quote! Ha!!
• Turk182!

  First of all, what I expect is that the ref doesn't decide who goes to state, the kids do. So in everyone's opinion, (and yes, this is an opinion based forum) calls being made where kids are ON THE WOODEN FLOOR are acceptable when officiating the "go to State" match?
  And to Refman, Well I'm pretty sure that Coach Nace asked you to explain your dumb call as to why a kid is required to wrestle on the wooden gym floor, and you didn't seem too receptive to explain to him why you felt it was OK to wrestle on the wooden gym floor, and "HOW DARE" a wrestler question my call. So, don't get on here and act all righteous about how you will listen to anyone's side of the story before adjudicating ...you're full of poopey.
  I may be overstepping here, but I'm curious to what your exact words were to the coach when he asked you why his wrestler was expect to wrestle on the wooden gym floor?
  1. It was a bad bad call that you blew and cost Luft 2 pts on the TD ,
  2. The UC call was premature and arrogant (and caused by the ridiculous call (see #1)) and cost Luft 1 pt on the penalty, and
  3. the final score was 5-4, so you tell me who decided that match...the boys or the ref?
  
  The part the really ate me up was that after the match, you were over there smiling and hob-knobbing with the other officials and "mocking" Coach Nace and the wrestler an making hand gestures like "hey, I didn't lock hands...that cost him a point" "well, he cost himself by losing control of himself" blah blah (and that locking point was questionable as well....so really the other kid got an escape the entire match, and goes to state).
  
  And I quote...
  "Bash me or any other referee all you want...but until YOU are in our shoes, seeing what we see, knowing what we know, you will NEVER truly understand why we make the calls we make nor will you understand the criteria."
  - so, basically you are saying that fans, coaches, wrestlers and anyone besides those of you in stripes are completely ignorant and we have no knowledge of the rules or criteria for making calls...we have never wrestled or read a rule book or watched 10's of thousands of matches ourselves..(and I'm sure no one on this forum is or has been an official - so THEY wouldn't know, either). Wow, that's not arrogant at all.
  
  And I have another final comment, and then I'm moving on to this coming weekend...there were some officials at Darby that did a FINE job all weekend. You never seen them make a bad call. There was not controversy at every match they reffed. They just did their jobs and did it well. Kudos to those guys...you know who you are.
• CaptJack

  Newbie and LowSingle, Kudos to both of you. Very good comments on both sides. And I love the new Comment of the Day!
  
  Turk182, Loved the movie...but then again there was real message there. I don't have any kids on the mat, I watch wrestling because I enjoy it. I have seen horrible calls (and I have voiced my displeasure at the referees a time or two :0). However, regardless of how bad a call was, I never put up with a wrestler antagonizing the referee (either as a coach, parent or team captain). So the score was tied, going to overtime, until a wrestler challenged the official. Did the official take it from the wrestler...or did the wrestler give it away? You be the judge. Regardless, it appears you joined the forum after the Districts with a message in mind. I think we got the message.
  
  Good luck to all the Central District wrestlers who made it out of the HD tournament. You are all deserving of your accomplishments and we hope you do well this weekend.
• Turk182!

  Capt Jack - you are correct that I joined after the Districts (so unfortunately I don't have the vast worldly experience and knowledge you've gained by your plethora of 12 posts), but didn't join with a message in mind. I joined because I was talking to some people at Districts that I don't see often , but used to speak with often on JJ and was saying it su**ed now and why don't you post on there anymore, and they said "f-r-e-e that spells free, free huddle dot com, baby" and so here I am.
  
  The problem is that the very first thread I read was THIS thread, sure enough I had an opinion on this exact subject and got a post on here and then it explodes into this. I don't really understand your post? Are you mental or something? What does the word "antagonize" have to do with the match in question?
  
  And really...that movie su**ed, but Blink182 was taken!
• Westie101

  

  I wrestled in the tournament and didnt see a big problem with the officiating. I thought it was good all around with the except of the strope call, but its going to happen every now and then.
• Refman

  Turk 182...lets get a few things straight here.
  
  1. We don't decide who goes or who doesn't...their ACTIONS do that. Everything we do is based on their ACTIONS. Is really is a simple thing.
  2. The takedown is question was just that...a takedown. You don't have to like it or accept it, but it was a TD. You might be the coach, you might be the parent..I dont know...you haven't identified yourself. If you want to talk about it, email or call me...again, a simple thing.
  3. That kid acted in a unsportsmanlike manner after the call was made, directly to me, and that by rule is not allowed. Pretty simple
  4. The coaches question was NOT about the floor but rather about the criteria of the TD. He quickly changed gears and wanted to argue the USC call. I dint need to scream or holler or be pompous or arrogant...I merely told him the criteria for the TD and why his wrestlers actions were USC....again a very simple thing. You take my knowing the rules and applying them as arrogance. Big difference.
  5.How dare a wrestler question my call? lol...too funny. It doesn't matter to me at all if a wrestler questions my call...but it IS USC. A wrestler by rule is NOT allowed to do that. It's not about being righteous, it's about applying rules fairly and evenly across the board. Just because that wrestler acted in a certain manner and you think thats ok to do, doesn't make it right.
  6. "It was a bad call" Was it bad only because your wrestler got taken down? Please explain YOUR criteria and why that is different from the rule book .
  Very simple call to make.
  7. "The USC call premature". Really? Which part...when he threw his hands up and addressed me in a unsportsmanlike manner or when he stomped his foot?
  8. "The final score was 5-4"..and because of that...I decided the match? Really? That is beautiful.
  9."You were over there smiling and hob-knobbing with the other officials and "mocking" Coach Nace"...I dont mock nor hob nob (what ever that means). I understand what the districts are about...someone loses, someone wins. I also understand the importance of every call and what they mean. I am sure if I had gone over and started to read the Bible, you would of construed it to be mocking someone. I don't mock nor do I make fun of situations, so dont even go there.
  10. I stand by my statement that UNTIL you have refereed 21 years at the levels I have refereed, you will NOT understand what I see versus what you see. You might of read a rule book, but that doesn't make you a referee. I told my spring class that started last night that reading the rule book and passing the test does NOT make one a referee. Until they have been tested, time and time again, under tremendous pressure, knowing whats on the line, they nor you will EVER understand. I don't think you are ignorant...hell I dont even know if you are the wrestler that lost, the mom or dad or coach. Doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is getting it right. I won't convince you of that and that's fine.
  Someone wins, someone loses. I feel sorry for every kid that puts his heart into it and loses. But I will tell you this straight up...I work very hard at getting it right and I know I will never please everyone. That isn't my job....my job is applying the rules.
• Westie101

  

  I agree that they should be allowed to question officiating, but calling someone pompous is going a little bit beyond the point...
• alaah

  Pssssstttttt!!!!!!!!! Note to Refman.............. "Refman" is a screen name....... I know you are a little befuddled (yes, real word) with the criticism
  I also believe that there is a lot of people that bash officials or question calls that do not understand the whole picture, but there are also a lot that do understand the whole picture and know the criteria.....
  For that matter have walked in your shoes...... You also get paid for what you do and having to put up with a little bashing comes with the territory.........
• SantaCarla

  Rumor has it that a team of Japanese Scientists programmed a Robot that officiates Wrestling, Tae Kwan Doe, and Boxing matches, with 100 percent correctness. This is the future folks. No more bitching about calls, and hardcore wrestling parents being assholes. Peace is coming to the mat. Just wait. I told you so.
  
• Con_Alma

  Tat can't be a wrestling official...not with his elbows out like that. Oh. wait...is that even an elbow?
• Newbie

  "Never argue with an idiot because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
• scol_1980

  Suprised Ackerman(215) didn't make it out of DI Ashland!
• Refman

  alaah...I would think everyone knows who I am. My email is splattered all over the place.
  
  Do a google search on "refman wrestling official"..it aint rocket science.
  
  As far as taking criticism/bashing...I am a big boy. I know every time I step onto a mat I am open to many slings and arrows. But...I also know...that I should know the rule book, every nuance (yes real word) of the sport better than anyone in that gym...that's my job. Eval me all you want...but do it from a even playing field, knowing what you are looking at and looking for. Know why the evaluators in the NCAA D1 finals are former D1 finals referees? Because they have been there.
  I teach my classes to be a duck...If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...it probably is a duck. I give every person n my two classes a year, a rubber duck to keep with them to remember to always be a duck. Same with being a referee....be fit..be able to move...know the rules...know how to apply those rules etc etc etc. It's not easy but yes...we get paid (not a lot mind you). And if you aren't doing the things one needs to do at that level..either learn to do better, or quit.
• SantaCarla

  Refman, that was inspiring, godbless you.
  Seriously, these hardcore parents that bitch at refs need to stop.
  Do you think when two kids step on the mat the ref is like "hmmm which kid am I going to screw over this match?"
  NO!
  So, stop, let the refs ref, and enjoy the match. Parents complaining is not going to change a call, so why waste precious energy, and voice over it?
• Shankapotamus

  In defense of Refman, I questioned two of his calls (actually his partners, that he had input) and studied the tape several times. I was initially upset and still have some issues/questions about the calls but can now understand what they (he) saw because of the explanations given at the table. I can live with that. Neither call effected the outcome of the matches. I plan on sending the clips for his review and follow up questions strictly for my own educational purposes. The other infamous call? Tape doesn't lie, complete phatom call, but you can't pin that one on Refman. He wasn't even involved.
• cruiser_96

  

  I'll say two things concerning the officiating this past weekend...
  
  #1) I know of three.. MAYBE four... calls that I was taken back by. Not bad for two days, but then again, I wasn't on the receiving end of any of those calls.
  
  #2) And no offense here refman, but! I would venture to say that of the eight man team, 5 wouldn't know the name of any of the 224 wrestlers if you placed them in a line-up. Of the remaining three refs, they might be able to come up with 10 wrestlers. Maybe if they worked together!?!?!
  
  The idea that the refs are out to "screw my kid" is rediculous to me.
  
  As an added bonus: I tried to trick a ref this weekend. We had what I believe two of the three main criteria for a takedown. The two we had were our arms behind his arms and a hooked ankle. What we didn't have and I KNEW we didn't have was the third - that being covered hips. When I called the ref over and mentioned the two we had and questioned why no two, he said, "That's easy. The hips weren't covered." To which I said, "Touche'" and sat my fat and happy butt down.
  
  All that to say, I think they know more than we give them credit for at times and if I could remove my red and black glasses for just a moment, I'd probably see things abit more clearly!
  
  But hey, that's just me.
• Refman

  Cruiser...There were actually 10 referees there (5 two man teams)
  
  I knew 3 kids I think.
  One took my class and is a referee, one wants to take my class, and one I knew from the City League.
• cruiser_96

  

  Was that a collaborated effort or was that a solo think!?
  
  That's three... seven more to go.
• lowsingle174

  I know that reffing high school matches is a tough task, but to rap in front of a crowd of people like Dan Salinas of pick north is crazy, check him out....
  
• I Wear Pants

  Refman:
  I have a question about a call in a match at Firestone. Before I start let me say that the match was won by the kid I was rooting for so that argument is out the window. I'm also not saying it was a good or bad call, just asking questions.
  
  The score was 3-3 with around 7-10 seconds in the third. Wrestler A had Wrestler B's ankle and head and was positioned with his head in Wrestler B's side. Wrestler B had a wizzer I believe. A was able to move to a position such that he met the criteria for a takedown and was awarded it with about 3 seconds to go. Time expired. 5-3 wrestler A, Match over. Not so fast. One of the officials had his hands signaling what looked like locked hands. Confused me because to have illegally locked hands he would have had to score the takedown. Which would make the match 5-4 if that was the call. Still match over.
  
  Turns out it wasn't locked hands that the official was signaling. It was that Wrestler B's headgear had come off in the process of Wrestler A getting a takedown. Something about using headgear to gain position. I didn't understand it completely. Please enlighten me someone.
  
  That wasn't even the problem I had. The problem was that this debating took no less than 12 minutes and the wrestlers had to be prepared for overtime or any other contingency to come out of it. Make the call or not but for the love of god don't take that long and let the wrestlers cool down and not know what is even going on. Just removes everything good about the match.
  
  That's probably pretty incoherent. Sorry.
  
  Other than that the officiating at Firestone was pretty decent.
• Refman

  SECTION 28 TECHNICAL VIOLATIONS
  ART. 1 . . . There are six types of technical violations. Each is penalized without
  warning as outlined in Rule 7-3:
  a. Intentionally going out of the wrestling area or forcing an opponent out of
  the wrestling area.
  b. Grasping of clothing, mat or ear guards.
  
  Also....from the NFHS signal chart...#17 is for either...locking hands OR grasping clothing. (Which includes ear guards, as in above)
  
  Also...from the casebook:
  
  7.3.2 SITUATION A: From the starting position on the mat, Wrestler B attempts
  a power switch. In order to counter, Wrestler A grasps the clothing of B preventing
  a reversal. RULING: As soon as the referee notices the grasped clothing, a
  locked hands signal to indicate there is a violation shall be given. Grasping clothing
  to gain or prevent an escape, reversal, takedown or fall is a technical violation.
  If the reversal were unsuccessful, the referee will stop the match and award one
  point to B for the technical violation. If B is successful in completing an escape
  or reversal, the point(s) would be awarded for that maneuver in addition to the
  points earned for the technical violation, and the match would not be stopped.
  The grasping of clothing, mat or ear guards is prohibited and any advantage
  gained thereby is nullified. COMMENT: If there is grasping of clothing in a pinning
  situation penalty points will also be awarded in addition to any near-fall points
  earned. (8-1-2)
  
  I can understand your frustration with a 12 min lag. Why 12 minutes...I have no clue. But...like you said...in the end...they got it right.
  
  Hope this helps.