So I'm sure everyone is noticing this Red vs. Blue debate about going back to work.  I don't get it - 0 cases was never the goal of the lockdowns, and even all of Europe is trying to get back to work.

I have a theory that these Democratic mayors and governors are expecting a blue wave in 2020 and Biden is just going to fire-up the printing press.  I don't believe, though it's possible, that they are trying to exploit the pandemic to transfer more power to the federal govt and create an economic crisis to justify things like the Green New Deal and universal healthcare.  I think that will be the result, but I don't think that's their reason for shutting down.

Also seeing the idea floated that the billionaires should just pay for everything.  The 1% have $35T in assets, which is almost 2 years of GDP.  Of course one of the subtle flaws in that logic is if no one has $80M to buy that Picasso, then that Picasso is not worth anywhere near $80M.

Also, when taxes get cranked up on the Red states going back to work while some of the Blue states sit around waiting for a handout....Oh boy, THAT is going to be fun.

I haven't seen the latest bill proposed, but I thought Pelosi was resisting a payroll taxcut.  You just can't give someone $2k a month to sit on their ass, even if thru no fault of their own, and nothing to the guy mopping floors at Walmart.

This distortion in incentives and payouts I'm sure is contributing to some of these decisions to extend lockdowns.  This job may be gone, but maybe the federal govt will continue to pay us for that job while we remain under lockdown.

posted by gut

I haven't seen the latest bill proposed, but I thought Pelosi was resisting a payroll taxcut.  You just can't give someone $2k a month to sit on their ass, even if thru no fault of their own, and nothing to the guy mopping floors at Walmart.

Her proposed bill is more of the same bullshit. Letting the rich deduct SALT uncapped again, stuff for Cannabis, stuff for the USPS, etc. Things that have nothing to do with this disease. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407

posted by iclfan2

Her proposed bill is more of the same bullshit. Letting the rich deduct SALT uncapped again, stuff for Cannabis, stuff for the USPS, etc. Things that have nothing to do with this disease. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407

LOL, so it's actually true while Pelosi bunkers down that she's running the House sort of like a dictatorship.

Although maybe that's what you need to push legislation thru quickly when all the special interests are elbowing each other out of the way to get their fill of porkulus.

Can't believe these idiots can't push thru clean bills even in a crisis (yes, I know, never let a good crisis go to waste!).  Reinstate SALT but not payroll deductions?  GTFOH with the red/blue state pandering.

Isn't her proposed bill over 3T?  GOP should just counter with a bill that waives taxes for all of 2020.  If we are going to pretend money isn't a concept, might as well go all in on no taxes. 

posted by like_that

Isn't her proposed bill over 3T?  GOP should just counter with a bill that waives taxes for all of 2020.  If we are going to pretend money isn't a concept, might as well go all in on no taxes. 

But that will only help people who are, you know, working.

I can't imagine what kind of corruption is brewing when the govt starts handing out over $6T.

To continue to keep schools closed appears to be moronic.  It is the demographic most safe.  We have to open the schools.  But, will left-wing politics seep into the debate, resulting in schools remaining closed to cause extended turmoil in hopes of winning a November election?  It is already happening in liberal California at the university level, and we know who runs universities. 

Then you have the latest bill from Pelosi.  Perhaps the worst part of the most hideous proposal ever presented is the part about bailing out blue states for decades of mismanagement, particularly with respect to the unaffordable retirement benefits they promised to state employees for decades.  No, we are not going to use taxpayer money to bail out state pension funds in the middle of a pandemic, you fucking political hack.

posted by QuakerOats

 It is already happening in liberal California at the university level, and we know who runs universities.

Some of that might be simple self-preservation.  There's a lot of old farts with elbow patches teaching at university.  Most classes can be done online, and in these times any job that can be done remotely maybe makes sense.  Just like most businesses don't need the accounting and finance folks coming into work, at least not more than once or twice a week.

Schools in general, but especially primary and secondary ed, can't really hold class with social distancing.  Remove some of the older teachers from the mix and you have an even bigger problem with class size.  The problem is, unlike college, you can't expect a good educational experience online for many K-12 students due to lack of resources.

If I was a college student, I'd consider taking the year off rather than pay for online courses.  I don't consider that a very quality experience for what you're paying.  I'd be outraged over paying $50k a year to take OSU classes online.  On top of that, if you're a senior you miss out on your best year on campus AND get to graduate into a shitty job market.

It would be interesting to see a the parallel universe where everything is the same, except the Dems have somebody in the White House.  Would the Dems still be willing to keep the country shut down?  Would the GOP still want the country to reopen? 

Another 3 million unemployed this week.  The total is now 36 million in two months.

This quite literally cannot continue. 

Protect the vulnerable; open the economy. Now.

posted by like_that

Would the Dems still be willing to keep the country shut down?

Yep.  This is their chance to finally neuter state rights and implement tens of trillions in new entitlements.  A global depression is just the sort of tragedy they need to re-make the economy based on social justice.

posted by QuakerOats

 

To continue to keep schools closed appears to be moronic.  It is the demographic most safe.  We have to open the schools.  But, will left-wing politics seep into the debate, resulting in schools remaining closed to cause extended turmoil in hopes of winning a November election?  It is already happening in liberal California at the university level, and we know who runs universities. 

 

I agree that keeping schools closed is a horrible idea.  As you say, this is the safest segment of the population.  Punishing children who aren't at virtually any risk is wrong.  If kids have relatives in their home that are at risk, then that family will have to take the appropriate action within their homes.

I think it is okay to not see all of this through the political lens.  This virus was an unknown that came out of right field.  No one in any country was prepared.  There have been decisions made that I agree with and decisions I don't like.  But it is fair to assume that the vast majority of leaders are doing the best they can with the information they have - they are doing what they think is right.  A governor may have a different opinion than me and may decide to keep schools closed because he/she thinks the risk to vulnerable people is too high.  It doesn't mean they are part of some grand conspiracy to bring down Trump.  Maybe they are doing what they think is right - even if you and I disagree. 

It's going to be interesting to see how we insource key global supply lines.  Simply slapping big tariffs on Chinese imports won't bring that production back here, it will only shift it to other developing economies (and this was already happening pre-pandemic).  You can't insource steel, for example, without significant protectionism to keep it competitive....and even the Dems threw in the towel on protectionism (i.e. "fair trade" not "free trade") 20 years ago.

My guess is that will be a long and painful process, and as the pandemic panic fades people will lose interest in making this happen.

Basically the key tests would be can we be 100% self-sufficient if the global supply chains are disrupted.  We are already there on food and energy (I think), so the main issue is pharma, medical equipment and supplies.  Other manufacturing is interesting in that it's mainly a question if we have the capacity to support a war effort, and we perhaps have maintained that capacity all along.  But then you think about steel and other inputs that are also part of this equation.

And the elephant in the room if you try to reverse globalization might very well be the bigly return of inflation.

posted by gut

It's going to be interesting to see how we insource key global supply lines.  Simply slapping big tariffs on Chinese imports won't bring that production back here, it will only shift it to other developing economies (and this was already happening pre-pandemic).  You can't insource steel, for example, without significant protectionism to keep it competitive....and even the Dems threw in the towel on protectionism (i.e. "fair trade" not "free trade") 20 years ago.

My guess is that will be a long and painful process, and as the pandemic panic fades people will lose interest in making this happen.

Basically the key tests would be can we be 100% self-sufficient if the global supply chains are disrupted.  We are already there on food and energy (I think), so the main issue is pharma, medical equipment and supplies.  Other manufacturing is interesting in that it's mainly a question if we have the capacity to support a war effort, and we perhaps have maintained that capacity all along.  But then you think about steel and other inputs that are also part of this equation.

And the elephant in the room if you try to reverse globalization might very well be the bigly return of inflation.

That's huge.  We all vote for globalization every time we step into Walmart for a cheap item.  

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I agree that keeping schools closed is a horrible idea.  As you say, this is the safest segment of the population.  Punishing children who aren't at virtually any risk is wrong.  If kids have relatives in their home that are at risk, then that family will have to take the appropriate action within their homes.

I think it is okay to not see all of this through the political lens.  This virus was an unknown that came out of right field.  No one in any country was prepared.  There have been decisions made that I agree with and decisions I don't like.  But it is fair to assume that the vast majority of leaders are doing the best they can with the information they have - they are doing what they think is right.  A governor may have a different opinion than me and may decide to keep schools closed because he/she thinks the risk to vulnerable people is too high.  It doesn't mean they are part of some grand conspiracy to bring down Trump.  Maybe they are doing what they think is right - even if you and I disagree. 

I can agree with your post.

posted by gut

It's going to be interesting to see how we insource key global supply lines.  Simply slapping big tariffs on Chinese imports won't bring that production back here, it will only shift it to other developing economies (and this was already happening pre-pandemic).  You can't insource steel, for example, without significant protectionism to keep it competitive....and even the Dems threw in the towel on protectionism (i.e. "fair trade" not "free trade") 20 years ago.

My guess is that will be a long and painful process, and as the pandemic panic fades people will lose interest in making this happen.

Basically the key tests would be can we be 100% self-sufficient if the global supply chains are disrupted.  We are already there on food and energy (I think), so the main issue is pharma, medical equipment and supplies.  Other manufacturing is interesting in that it's mainly a question if we have the capacity to support a war effort, and we perhaps have maintained that capacity all along.  But then you think about steel and other inputs that are also part of this equation.

And the elephant in the room if you try to reverse globalization might very well be the bigly return of inflation.

I believe I read yesterday that certain drugs are going to legislated to return to the US.

posted by QuakerOats

To continue to keep schools closed appears to be moronic.  It is the demographic most safe.  We have to open the schools.  But, will left-wing politics seep into the debate, resulting in schools remaining closed to cause extended turmoil in hopes of winning a November election?  It is already happening in liberal California at the university level, and we know who runs universities.

LOL

We've got the most party-line-toeing Republican on the site making it a left-wing strategy to keep a tax-funded and state-run (and, thus, technically socialist) institution closed.

What a time to be alive.

posted by O-Trap

LOL

We've got the most party-line-toeing Republican on the site making it a left-wing strategy to keep a tax-funded and state-run (and, thus, technically socialist) institution closed.

What a time to be alive.

 

Essentially a side effect of how the reality of "politics of COVID-19" is that people on both sides will constantly drone on about how the other side's actions are purely politically motivated, regardless of what horrible consequences that will inevitably have if they win. The Ds want things shut down, not because of potential health/safety violations, but solely to make Orange Man look bad. The Rs want things opened up, not because of the economic toll, but solely to keep Orange Man looking strong.

Regardless of how much that does factor into the reasoning (and since we're talking about politicians, it definitely does), when the debate over a serious, infectious disease gets reduced to revolving around its impact on an election and what people get to steal taxpayer money to play at being leaders for the next few years, it can be assured that EVERY ASPECT of the debate will be people doing whatever they can to force "look what THEY are doing!!!!!" arguments into it. And therefore, those Cali socialists are shutting down their Socialist Re-education Facilities...to hurt Republicans...somehow...

Easiest way to explain the politics with actual logic is to imagine a graph where one axis is "severity of the situation" and the other is "the fucking inconvenience of not doing what you want because orders and shut-downs". With how the left (in general) has embraced the "stay at home/make the curve vanish" tactic and the right (also in general) has gone for the "open stuff up/can't do this until everyone feels safe" tactic, logic dictates that if, as things open up, the line swings to "severity", it'll be costly to Rs and if the line says "we're inconvenienced", it'll hurt the Ds.

Which creates the AWESOME paradox, politics-wise, where the people most adamant about staying home could benefit most from people going back to normal life and the people most adamant about getting back to normal could benefit the most from social distancing and anything that would prevent a spike in numbers in that "if you listened to us and not them, we'd be better off" way.

posted by O-Trap

LOL

We've got the most party-line-toeing Republican on the site making it a left-wing strategy to keep a tax-funded and state-run (and, thus, technically socialist) institution closed.

What a time to be alive.

 

I’ll get you a ladder next time.

posted by Heretic

Which creates the AWESOME paradox, politics-wise, where the people most adamant about staying home could benefit most from people going back to normal life and the people most adamant about getting back to normal could benefit the most from social distancing..

I remember seeing study after study saying 70% of Americans hate their job.  So I wonder how much of this is driven by getting paid to stay home beats the hell out of working?

Also, another fun development to watch is going to be what the Screen Actors Guild does to help its workers displaced due to the pandemic.  Will be interesting to see how truly socialist and caring the biggest mouths are when it's their wallet SAG reaches for...

posted by QuakerOats

I’ll get you a ladder next time.

 

I'll need more than a ladder to have my head that far into the clouds.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/cdc-now-says-coronavirus-does-not-spread-easily-via-contaminated-surfaces

Bureaucrats have been wrong about every step of the way.

Over 2,000,000 are going to die // 200,000 are going to die

Don’t wear masks // wear masks

Virus spreads from touching surfaces // virus does not spread from surfaces

Keep Wal-Mart open where thousands gather // close barber shops with 5 people

BIG government at its finest.

How much longer are you going to listen to bureaucratic ‘experts’?  These are the same people wanting to scare you into giving them more control over you via climate change and the environment and universal health insurance.  

Stop the madness.

I mean, I guess technically you can say they were wrong. I don't really consider changing your position when new facts are obtained to be a bad trait though.

posted by Rotinaj

...I don't really consider changing your position when new facts are obtained to be a bad trait though.

But you'd be a terrible politician....

posted by Rotinaj

I mean, I guess technically you can say they were wrong. I don't really consider changing your position when new facts are obtained to be a bad trait though.

Ignore people saying "they were wrong from the beginning".  The fact is NO ONE knew what this thing was going to be. People who were responsible for making decisions that had lives and health on the line did the best they could with the incomplete information that was available at the time. When faced with a potentially deadly health crisis, you error on the side of caution. As more and more information based on newer facts becomes available, you then reassess and adjust. 

Hindsight is easy for everything and is not helpful. WW2 was filled with allied choices that hindsight suggests were wrong and based upon faulty estimates. But guess what, they weren't bad decisions. They were the best that could be made in real time with what wasavailable. The same principle applies here. Now that we know what we know, how do we best move forward.