Public Vs Private-possible committee

• Squirmydog

  So then, is the solution to create divisions based on income?
• catchr22

  Squirmy--it is not that simple. As discussed, there are a variety of problems that do not allow one decision that solves all issues!!!
• redstreak one

  

  Squirmy, sort of! Privates do not reflect all of society withing their walls. Meaning, tuition is a roadblock for a percentage of the population. While privates offer scholarships and work programs to offset the cost, a percentage of the people still will not be accepted to that private school. This percentage is an advantage that can be measured. Using the examples from my last post, how many IEP's in the private schools, how many free and reduced lunch plans? This percentage of the population USUALLY brings very little to the educational and extra curricular settings. They arent counted towards divisions for the privates, but do for the publics.
• general94

  Look folks, I don't think anybody in their right mind will suggest that schools like Rosecrans or GCC have a decided advantage. I think people are mainly thinking of schools like Ursuline, Mooney, Alter, etc. that obviously have an advantage. That is what makes this such a hard situation to fix. It is not a one size fits all solution. Forcing schools like Rosecrans, GCC, Stueb. Catholic, etc. up two or three divisions is ludicrous. On the other side, there is no reason why the Mooney's, Ursulines and Alters should not be forced up at least two divisions. I would think enough smart people could put their heads together and come up with a solution everybody could live with.
  
  The above poster is correct, publics have to take every student that lives within their district. Special needs, handicapped, L.D. Should these students be counted in enrollment figures for extra-curricular activities? Something does not seem right about this. A blind man could see a great discrepancy here. Also, does everyone really believe that all of these students that attend private schools are paying tuition. There is the little fact of 'scholarships', or a good player being 'sponsered' by a another players dad that has the big bucks. We all know these sort of things go on. I know there are probably more than a few public schools that do this crap too. This stuff is what the OHSAA should be trying to crack down on.
• GoChiefs

  

  Well..what would be your ideal solution? If a private school has a winning season..they have to move up..but if they don't...they stay where there at? I don't think there is an easy fix that would be fair to all schools.
• Squirmydog

  general94 wrote: Look folks, I don't think anybody in their right mind will suggest that schools like Rosecrans or GCC have a decided advantage. I think people are mainly thinking of schools like Ursuline, Mooney, Alter, etc. that obviously have an advantage. That is what makes this such a hard situation to fix. It is not a one size fits all solution. Forcing schools like Rosecrans, GCC, Stueb. Catholic, etc. up two or three divisions is ludicrous. On the other side, there is no reason why the Mooney's, Ursulines and Alters should not be forced up at least two divisions. I would think enough smart people could put their heads together and come up with a solution everybody could live with.
  
  The above poster is correct, publics have to take every student that lives within their district. Special needs, handicapped, L.D. Should these students be counted in enrollment figures for extra-curricular activities? Something does not seem right about this. A blind man could see a great discrepancy here. Also, does everyone really believe that all of these students that attend private schools are paying tuition. There is the little fact of 'scholarships', or a good player being 'sponsered' by a another players dad that has the big bucks. We all know these sort of things go on. I know there are probably more than a few public schools that do this crap too. This stuff is what the OHSAA should be trying to crack down on.

  I see a kernel of an agreement here. If a public school has programs the local privates can't offer, such as special needs or whatever, those kids should not count against the enrollment figures unless the kids are involved in activities. That still doesn't address the problems of Mooney and Alder. Now, what do we do about St Ed's wrestling program, Glenville's track program, Upper Arlington's swimming program or Marion Local girl's volleyball? Also, what do we do about programs who struggle year after year?
  Someone also please tell about the disparity between Marion County football and Muskingum County football????
• ManO'War

  

  rmolin73 wrote:

  ManO'War wrote: Mooney is the smallest school in D3, but they draw from a large metro area, that is why they have multiple kids going to D1 schools every year.
  
  I could pick 22 players from across the state and beat any team in the state, but my "enrollment" of 22 would put me in D6.

  You might want to check this so called large metro area. I checked out Mooney's roster and most of the kids come from the catholic feeder schools (48), Youngstown city schools or private academies (14), one kid from China, and 3 kids from outside the city limits. Wow they are going out of their way to get kids from this enormous metro area. I also can't believe you called Youngstown and the surrounding areas large. Face it these kids play Youngstown football they have been kicking ass for years. The athletes in that pocket are phenomenal.

  I lived in Boardman, the heart of Mooney's territory for 4 years, so I'm quite familiar with the area. They draw kids from the south side of Youngstown, Boardman, Austintown, Canfield, Poland, Struthers, Campbell, Salem, and had players from as far away as Lisbon and East Liverpool. The populations of those areas support two D1 schools, 2 D2 schools, 5 D3 schools, and a D4 school. I would say that is a large metro area.
  
  It doesn't matter if they attended their feeder schools or not, the fact is that they are there, and that is what defines the area that they draw from.
  
  If you get just a few good athletes from each of those communities, then you're going to field a heck of a team.
• Dean Wormer

  ManO'War wrote:

  rmolin73 wrote:

  ManO'War wrote: Mooney is the smallest school in D3, but they draw from a large metro area, that is why they have multiple kids going to D1 schools every year.
  
  I could pick 22 players from across the state and beat any team in the state, but my "enrollment" of 22 would put me in D6.

  You might want to check this so called large metro area. I checked out Mooney's roster and most of the kids come from the catholic feeder schools (48), Youngstown city schools or private academies (14), one kid from China, and 3 kids from outside the city limits. Wow they are going out of their way to get kids from this enormous metro area. I also can't believe you called Youngstown and the surrounding areas large. Face it these kids play Youngstown football they have been kicking ass for years. The athletes in that pocket are phenomenal.

  I lived in Boardman, the heart of Mooney's territory for 4 years, so I'm quite familiar with the area. They draw kids from the south side of Youngstown, Boardman, Austintown, Canfield, Poland, Struthers, Campbell, Salem, and had players from as far away as Lisbon and East Liverpool. The populations of those areas support two D1 schools, 2 D2 schools, 5 D3 schools, and a D4 school. I would say that is a large metro area.
  
  It doesn't matter if they attended their feeder schools or not, the fact is that they are there, and that is what defines the area that they draw from.
  
  If you get just a few good athletes from each of those communities, then you're going to field a heck of a team.

  If you lived in Boardman then you know that Youngstown, Boardman, Canfield, Struthers, Campbell, Salem, Austintown, etc. all have Catholic grade schools that feed both Mooney and Ursuline. Which high school a kid chooses to attend is his or her choice. Should Mooney or Ursuline turn these kids away? I do have to say, if you know anything about Youngstown and the surrounding areas in recent years you can't in good conscience call it a "large" metropolitan area.
• gamauter

  

  redstreak one wrote: The multiplier for any private school is easy to figure out, just look at the cross section of society and see if it fits the mold of the same students at a private and public school. For example, Private A and Public B. Both schools are located in a small urban population of say 75,000 people. Both schools are at 200 boys enrollment making them D IV. Private A, who do you think they draw from that population, all, ummm no tuition which has been mentioned keeps a percentage of the population out. So, the 200 boys that are at Private A are pretty motivated to be there be it that their parents pay, or they are working to be there or are on scholarship. Now lets look at Public B, how many of those 200 are motivated to be there! Most schools right around 30-40 percent participation rate in extra curriculars across the board. So, what school percentage wise has a better chance of fielding a better team?
  
  SOCIOECONOMICS people, it is what drives most things in this world. It just isnt public versus private, its SOCIOECONOMICS. Within Piketons conference made up of all publics in rural areas guess which teams predominately do well in all sports, Unioto, Westfall and Zane Trace. All located near or have a strong socioeconomic base. The teams who dont always preform well, or for that matter field every team or sport that is offered, Paint Valley, Southeastern, Huntington, Piketon and Adena all smaller rural teams that have a lower socioeconomic structure.
  
  I am not picking on Privates, Publics in large urban areas, Northland and such benefit just as much as others.

  Stubenville blows this theory to hell.
• catchr22

  ga--As with most situations there are exceptions. Strong leadership and parental support can overcome many obstacles that weaker programs cannot!!
• Squirmydog

  catchr22 wrote: ga--As with most situations there are exceptions. Strong leadership and parental support can overcome many obstacles that weaker programs cannot!!

  Then why make a change? That is the point I have trying to make all along. No system is perfect. Why dismantle this to make another imperfect system that will benefit the same programs?I message I am getting a sense from you is you have a passion for rural publics. What possible system can we come with that will give give these schools a chance at a championship without punishing unfairly other schools? Each school has to take stock of their programs and discover what they do well and what they need to improve in order to be the best they can possibley be. There are obstacles to overcome. I understand that completely. I am also aware that obstacles can be overcome. It takes commitment on several facets.
• catchr22

  If you are intimating that I am representing rural publics you are way off!! I am in agreement that there is no perfect answer to satisfy everyone. I am also in agreement that no one has offered a solution which is inherently fairer than the existing system!! So, if no one can come up with a better answer, why let the Wayne County whiners have their way? The reason I call them whiners is that they complain without offering one feasible option that can be discussed!! They will say that they offered the multiplier. Yes, it was mentioned, but no detail how it can be administered that improves the situation other than simply eliminating the privates from participation!!
• Squirmydog

  I am not intimatatin gyou are representing rural publics, just that you use that segment in your examples a lot. It just left me curious if you might be a fan or graduate of a rural school. No biggie. Why would Wayne County specifically want to address this? They seem to have some decent sports up there. I am a hard sell when it comes to sweeping changes in the high school tournament format. I am not black/white on things, but there is nothing proposed that will improve the situation imho.
• Al Bundy

  ManO'War wrote:

  rmolin73 wrote:

  ManO'War wrote: Mooney is the smallest school in D3, but they draw from a large metro area, that is why they have multiple kids going to D1 schools every year.
  
  I could pick 22 players from across the state and beat any team in the state, but my "enrollment" of 22 would put me in D6.

  You might want to check this so called large metro area. I checked out Mooney's roster and most of the kids come from the catholic feeder schools (48), Youngstown city schools or private academies (14), one kid from China, and 3 kids from outside the city limits. Wow they are going out of their way to get kids from this enormous metro area. I also can't believe you called Youngstown and the surrounding areas large. Face it these kids play Youngstown football they have been kicking ass for years. The athletes in that pocket are phenomenal.

  I lived in Boardman, the heart of Mooney's territory for 4 years, so I'm quite familiar with the area. They draw kids from the south side of Youngstown, Boardman, Austintown, Canfield, Poland, Struthers, Campbell, Salem, and had players from as far away as Lisbon and East Liverpool. The populations of those areas support two D1 schools, 2 D2 schools, 5 D3 schools, and a D4 school. I would say that is a large metro area.
  
  It doesn't matter if they attended their feeder schools or not, the fact is that they are there, and that is what defines the area that they draw from.
  
  If you get just a few good athletes from each of those communities, then you're going to field a heck of a team.

  Boardman usually gets more kids out of the private system (mostly St. Charles) than Mooney gets out of the Boardman middle schools.
• Paladin

  The fact remains, if we are talking football,that if I get the better athletes from the surrounding 7 or 8 communities plus the kids in my city, I'm going to have a he11 of a team, no matter if you are public or private school. But since publics aren't built that way, the private schools stand out and the glaring mismatches become evident.
  
  Years ago, this wasn't much of a problem, but when suburban flight occured from the cities, parochials grew from being made up of kids from the city to made up of kids from 8-10 communities. That is not a fair playing field.
• Squirmydog

  Paladin wrote: The fact remains, if we are talking football,that if I get the better athletes from the surrounding 7 or 8 communities plus the kids in my city, I'm going to have a he11 of a team, no matter if you are public or private school. But since publics aren't built that way, the private schools stand out and the glaring mismatches become evident.
  
  Years ago, this wasn't much of a problem, but when suburban flight occured from the cities, parochials grew from being made up of kids from the city to made up of kids from 8-10 communities. That is not a fair playing field.

  All privates? What about magnet schools? What is being proposed that will actually fix this and how will it fix the problem without creating a different set of inequities?
• Al Bundy

  Paladin wrote: The fact remains, if we are talking football,that if I get the better athletes from the surrounding 7 or 8 communities plus the kids in my city, I'm going to have a he11 of a team, no matter if you are public or private school. But since publics aren't built that way, the private schools stand out and the glaring mismatches become evident.
  
  Years ago, this wasn't much of a problem, but when suburban flight occured from the cities, parochials grew from being made up of kids from the city to made up of kids from 8-10 communities. That is not a fair playing field.

  Open enrollment schools can draw from just as large an area (and good schools do).
• skank

  

  Seven counties?
• redstreak one

  

  gamauter wrote:
  
  Stubenville blows this theory to hell.

  Not really, Steubenville won their 1st championship in 84 in what is now known as D II. Same in 87 and 88 D II Runners Up. In 05 and 06 Champions in D III and in 08 runners up in D IV. Slowly Steubenville like Youngstown is slipping in population while still retaining a strong history. The difference is their best players arent leaving to go to another program, because they have been the best and there are 3 schools around them in Ohio, Edison, Buckeye Local and Indian Creek. Not exactly power houses, so why would the best talent leave Steubenville?
  Ironton is a lot like this as well in our area. They attract a lot of talent from other districts and retain their own talent. I am not saying publics dont do this, my biggest gripe is that publics have to count a percentage of their student population that privates dont, ie special needs and extremely poor students.
• gamauter

  

  My kids go to a public school, I went to both, while at the Catholic high school we had many students who could not or did not want to play sports. We had handicapped students, students who were very smart but not at all athletic, students who were challenged but their parents were cartholic and chose to send them there. My freshman year we had about 4 boys transfer in to play football. Not one of them made any contribution to the team. Their parents wanted them associated with the school. I will agree we had a much higher % of participation but I was hardly going to school with members of the Green Bay Packers. We also had alcohol/drug and discipline issues. Not all of these were dumped on the public school and while I was at the public school these kids were dismissed.
• Sonofanump

  Here is my idea of how this could be “changed/fixed”:
  
  Enrollment figures shall consist of all state funded students who qualify physically and academically for extra curricular activities minus those students whose IEP qualifies them to spend more than 25% of the school day in a self contained classroom. This would weed out the “dead weight” without some arbitrary multiplier being applied like they did in the 1787 with the 5/3 compromise.
  
  The divisions shall consist of a 60 team super division, a 60 team small school division and six 100 team middle divisions. The small school division can only consist of public non open enrollment schools. The super division will contain the 30 largest public and 30 largest private schools. Put Glenville (I can’t think of any other school like this to put up there, I guess CAPE is it existed) in this super division due to strict enrollment and allow schools like, McKinley and Massillon to enroll up. This would put the cut off of the super division near 750 boys. I imagine the small school division cut off would be near 100, so no MAC schools dominate there.
  
  The only other solution would be to separate the public and private schools and have five public divisions and three private divisions.
• queencitybuckeye

  or we could quite pretending that the main reason your (speaking globally) public school kids can't win is anything other than that they just aren't good enough.
• catchr22

  queencity--I think you over-simplify!! The discussion is to provide a situation in which all schools of the same size have an equitable drawing area. To this point, I have not heard any one solution that addresses all the concerns that have been raised!!
• Al Bundy

  Sonofanump wrote: Here is my idea of how this could be “changed/fixed”:
  
  Enrollment figures shall consist of all state funded students who qualify physically and academically for extra curricular activities minus those students whose IEP qualifies them to spend more than 25% of the school day in a self contained classroom. This would weed out the “dead weight” without some arbitrary multiplier being applied like they did in the 1787 with the 5/3 compromise.
  
  The divisions shall consist of a 60 team super division, a 60 team small school division and six 100 team middle divisions. The small school division can only consist of public non open enrollment schools. The super division will contain the 30 largest public and 30 largest private schools. Put Glenville (I can’t think of any other school like this to put up there, I guess CAPE is it existed) in this super division due to strict enrollment and allow schools like, McKinley and Massillon to enroll up. This would put the cut off of the super division near 750 boys. I imagine the small school division cut off would be near 100, so no MAC schools dominate there.
  
  The only other solution would be to separate the public and private schools and have five public divisions and three private divisions.

  Just go to 700 divisions and everyone can be state champs every year.
• Con_Alma

  Why oh why would private schools remain as members of the OHSAA if they were separated from the publics??
  
  Why would they give their tournament revenue to the OHSAA?
  
  Why would they continue to let the OHSAA define their playing rules.
  
  Why would they not create their own governing body if they were not permitted to compete in the same tournament everyone else was?