Wayne Co. superintendents take on private vs. public debate
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Rocket08You can use any example you want
None of this matters. It's just an exercise -
fossywriter8Someone mentioned earlier that if a multiplier was used and some private schools moved up a division (in some cases in football, two divisions), some public schools would move down. The newspaper story that started this thing off didn't say that.
Would the OHSAA move 'X' number of public schools down a division (or two) because 'Y' number of private schools moved up? If so, wouldn't that cause an unfair advantage for those which do move down, since they have more students than the cutoff allows?
And no one's answered my question about why a multiplier of 1.65 was mentioned. Why that number and not another, such as 1.5? Is it because a lower multiplier would probably mean fewer teams would up in divisions?
Here's a question: What happens if the OHSAA switches to a multiplier, several teams move up a division (or two) and they still win state titles? Does the OHSAA keep upping the multiplier until schools like Division VI Fostoria St. Wendelin (47 boys) or Marion Catholic (35 boys) are Division III or higher? -
catchr22As I said before, I do not believe OHSAA will even look at this issue unless you can resolve the issue with the "super" D1s. A multiplier simply does not address all the issues.
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Al Bundy
The cutoffs change every time they change they change divisions (currently on a two year cycle). The goal is to try to get 1/6 of the schools in each division. If they went to a multiplier, those values would be totaled before they determined the new cutoffs. If you are going to have a multiplier for private schools because they can draw from a larger geographic area, I don't see how you don't include open enrollment schools who can also draw from a larger geographic area.fossywriter8 wrote: Someone mentioned earlier that if a multiplier was used and some private schools moved up a division (in some cases in football, two divisions), some public schools would move down. The newspaper story that started this thing off didn't say that.
Would the OHSAA move 'X' number of public schools down a division (or two) because 'Y' number of private schools moved up? If so, wouldn't that cause an unfair advantage for those which do move down, since they have more students than the cutoff allows?
And no one's answered my question about why a multiplier of 1.65 was mentioned. Why that number and not another, such as 1.5? Is it because a lower multiplier would probably mean fewer teams would up in divisions?
Here's a question: What happens if the OHSAA switches to a multiplier, several teams move up a division (or two) and they still win state titles? Does the OHSAA keep upping the multiplier until schools like Division VI Fostoria St. Wendelin (47 boys) or Marion Catholic (35 boys) are Division III or higher? -
fossywriter8I know the cutoffs are changed every two years. But as I stated earlier, if a multiplier was used, some (not all, but some) private schools could cap their enrollment and stay wherever they wanted.
I don't believe a multiplier would fix what some see as a problem. I don't see the current situation as a problem.
I cover sports for a small town paper for a living and see my share of public and private schools playing each other in a variety of sports. Maybe where some of you live there's rampant recruiting and rules infractions, with public kids getting the shaft. In my neck of the woods in northwest Ohio, the talent pool seems pretty evenly distributed between public and private — we have poor, good and great teams from both sides — and the kids keep on playing and competing and winning and losing.
In 2007 and 2008, an area public team went to the state finals and was beaten both times by private schools, both of which would have been bumped up a division under the proposed plan. To get to the finals, the same public team had to beat a private school, which would have been bumped up a division under the proposed plan.
I never heard any complaints from players, coaches or fans of the public team about how unfair it was to play a private school. The team just played another from the same division with roughly the same number of boys, and the better team won each time. The fact one had a cross hanging in the school and the other didn't wasn't the deciding factor.
Do some private schools recruit? I'm sure they do.
Do some public schools recruit? Again, I'm sure they do.
Maybe we should just do away with all post-season contests so no one got their feelings hurt.
As a I stated before, even if a multiplier comes about and some private schools move up one or more divisions, some private schools are still going to win state titles, probably in a higher division against teams they normally wouldn't have competed against in the post-season. What happens then?
As for using the multiplier for open enrollments, good luck with that. I'm sure the private schools would push for that as an equalizer, and they'd be right. If that happened, we'd be pretty much right back where we are now; I don't know how many public schools don't accept open enrollments, but I can't see many of them doing refusing open enrollments since accepting more students brings in more state money. -
Al Bundy
The only private schools that cap their enrollments are the exremely large ones, and all of those are already D1, so a multiplier will not change that. The small private schools need students very badly, and none of them are capping enrollment.fossywriter8 wrote: I know the cutoffs are changed every two years. But as I stated earlier, if a multiplier was used, some (not all, but some) private schools could cap their enrollment and stay wherever they wanted.
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fossywriter8I agree, Al Bundy. I don't think small private schools would cap their enrollment, but that option would, and is, there for them.
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fossywriter8I have crunched more numbers.
In the 38 years of post-season play in Ohio high school football history, there have been 190 championship games and 380 semifinal games.
Here's what has occurred:
Championship Games
Won: Private 91#, Public 99#
Runner-up trophies earned: Private 61, Public 129
Private vs Private: 31
Private vs Public: 90#
Public vs Public: 69#
Record of Private vs Public in championship games: 59-31#
Semifinal Games
Private vs Private: 36
Private vs Public: 183*#
Public vs Public: 161*#
Record of Private vs Public in semifinal games: 112-71*#
* Corrected numbers to include three Cleveland St. Joseph losses, each to Canton McKinley (one in Class A, two in Division I).
# Corrected numbers to include two Cleveland St. Joseph games in Division II (one semifinal win, one championship win).
Cleveland St. Joseph, you are my nemesis! -
fossywriter8More post-season high school info regarding Private vs Public.
Private schools hold a 59-31* lead on Public schools in head-to-head football title games.
The head-to-head breakdown by division/class are:
Class AAA (1972-79)
Private 3, Public 0
Division I (1980-2009)
Private 12, Public 5
Division II (1980-2009)
Private 7*, Public 2
Class AA (1972-79)
Private 3, Public 4
Division III (1980-2009)
Private 12, Public 3
Division IV (1980-2009)
Private 9, Public 6
Class A (1972-79)
Private 2, Public 3
Division V (1980-2009)
Private 9, Public 7
Division VI (1980-2009)
Private 2, Public 1
* Corrected numbers to include Cleveland St. Joseph losses games.
Cleveland St. Joseph, you are my nemesis! -
Al Bundy
fossy,fossywriter8 wrote: More post-season high school info regarding Private vs Public.
Private schools hold a 58-31 lead on Public schools in head-to-head football title games.
The head-to-head breakdown by division/class are:
Class AAA (1972-79)
Private 3, Public 0
Division I (1980-2009)
Private 12, Public 5
Division II (1980-2009)
Private 6, Public 2
Class AA (1972-79)
Private 3, Public 4
Division III (1980-2009)
Private 12, Public 3
Division IV (1980-2009)
Private 9, Public 6
Class A (1972-79)
Private 2, Public 3
Division V (1980-2009)
Private 9, Public 7
Division VI (1980-2009)
Private 2, Public 1
Thanks for doing all of the reseach. Do you have the information regarding how many different private schools make up those 58 wins? I'm thinking it is a smaller number of schools than most people think it is. -
Rocket08
You're nuts if you think a small to mid-size private school would even consider capping their enrollment in order to be in a specific division for football.fossywriter8 wrote: I agree, Al Bundy. I don't think small private schools would cap their enrollment, but that option would, and is, there for them.
It's actually very hard, if not impossible even if they wanted to. The divisions are realigned every couple of years [size=medium]after[/size] enrollment numbers are in. The OHSAA then re-aligns.
Stupid thought, get it out of your head -
fossywriter8Rocket08,
You need to re-read all of my posts. I didn't say I think or feel the private schools should cap their enrollments, merely that they can. They can cap themselves each year or not at all.
If a school chose to cap, a smart administrator could come pretty close to setting the magic number each time before the enrollment numbers are counted. It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done. As an example, if the 1.65 multiplier were in use right now, the cutoff for a Division VI football team would be 75 boys. With enrollments seeming to continue dropping around the state, a private school could cap its grade 9-11 boys at 70 for the next count.
They (not me for suggesting it) would be stupid to do it, though, since they'd lose money.
Again, I didn't endorse the option, I just said it was a possibility. -
catchr22If they would lose money and you do not think it would happen, what is the relevance of the point? You can throw out all these possibilities you want, but why not deal with reality and discuss what is pertinent to the issue?
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Rocket08
Once again, your comment is ignorant. Not even worth further discussionfossywriter8 wrote: Rocket08,
You need to re-read all of my posts. I didn't say I think or feel the private schools should cap their enrollments, merely that they can. They can cap themselves each year or not at all.
If a school chose to cap, a smart administrator could come pretty close to setting the magic number each time before the enrollment numbers are counted. It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done. As an example, if the 1.65 multiplier were in use right now, the cutoff for a Division VI football team would be 75 boys. With enrollments seeming to continue dropping around the state, a private school could cap its grade 9-11 boys at 70 for the next count.
They (not me for suggesting it) would be stupid to do it, though, since they'd lose money.
Again, I didn't endorse the option, I just said it was a possibility. -
Dean WormerRocket 08
I have it on good authority that the Pope has ordered all Catholic churches to cap their parishioner numbers also. They have been getting way to much in the collection each Sunday and they are tired of counting all of that money. -
skank
You guys crack me up....No clue. -
Rocket08[size=medium]^^^^[/size]
Go brag about beating Dover 5 years ago
That's really all you got
7 Real Titles and Growing -
skank
Hey, get all worked up if you want "rocket man", all I'm saying is that if you think the system is fair like it is now, you're crazy. having the advantages that parochials have, and being open enrollment are two different animals, open enrollment allows you to accept kids that want to attend your school, NOT actually target "certain kids".
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catchr22From the posters that have addressed this issue, it seems that the area that is the most upset is centered in the Northeast. Whatever is going on there seems to be far different than what is going on in Central Ohio!!
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GoChiefs
Maybe you should go visit a certain southeastern ohio sports website..look at the thread there. Yeah..it's not just centered in NE Ohio. -
Al Bundy
Private schools can only accept kids that want to attend the school. No one is being forced to attend a private school or an open enrollment school. Both schools can accept kids that want to go there.skank wrote: Hey, get all worked up if you want "rocket man", all I'm saying is that if you think the system is fair like it is now, you're crazy. having the advantages that parochials have, and being open enrollment are two different animals, open enrollment allows you to accept kids that want to attend your school, NOT actually target "certain kids". -
redstreak one
^^^^^^^But the public cant deny enrollment based on ability to pay. That public school has to take the crackhead baby who cant read who is living with grandma on assisted living. Once again, you private school supporters cant understand simple math.
A private school will take every student who can afford to pay, and pick and choose who they let in on either scholarship or other forms of payment. That is controlling your enrollment.
Here simple analogy, 2 schools and there are only 10 students in the area that want to attend.
School A Public
School B Private
Student 1 Smart, athletic and parents can afford tuition. Can go to either school
Student 2 Smart, athletic and parents would have to skimp and scrape to afford tuiton. Could go to either.
Student 3 Smart, athletic and parents cant afford tuition. Private would offer help, so could go to either.
Student 4 average grades, average athletic parent can afford, could go either.
Student 5 average grades, average athletic parents would have to skimp, could go either.
Student 6 average grades average athletics parents cant afford, probably not a scholarship but maybe other means to afford tuition such as loans or work program so could go to either.
Student 7 below average grades, not athletic parents can afford tuition. Could go either.
Student 8 below average grades, not athletic parents would have to skimp, probably not a scholarship student. Probably not getting help to go to private, but still could find a way so both.
Student 9 same as 8 except definately couldnt afford tuition, once again not getting a scholarship but may find a way.
Student 10 delinquent, poor family definately no scholarship or any help. Public only.
So, out of those 10 students how many walking the hallways of the privates, top number 9 and that is a giant stretch. More like 6 or 7 out of 10 that would be at the private school.
Now here is the easy math, how many would be in public, yep you got it all 10 would be in that school if they wanted.
So, where is the number discrepancy, why do some want a multiplier, because private schools do not represent the entire population of the area they cover while publics do. Simple huh! -
Rocket08
Your school "Targets" kids all of the time, and you still can't get over the humpskank wrote: Hey, get all worked up if you want "rocket man", all I'm saying is that if you think the system is fair like it is now, you're crazy. having the advantages that parochials have, and being open enrollment are two different animals, open enrollment allows you to accept kids that want to attend your school, NOT actually target "certain kids".
[size=large]7[/size] and Counting -
catchr22Redstreak is absolutely correct-it is an option to go to a private school. There is a "reason" why each student chooses not to be in a public system and they are NOT all athletic!! I am not a wealthy person but I made the sacrifice to send my son to a private school and, when the decision was made, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with athletics!!!
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skank
Dance around it if you want, but a public school coach had better not get caught going to an 8th grade practice across town, holding a clipboard.Al Bundy wrote:
Private schools can only accept kids that want to attend the school. No one is being forced to attend a private school or an open enrollment school. Both schools can accept kids that want to go there.skank wrote: Hey, get all worked up if you want "rocket man", all I'm saying is that if you think the system is fair like it is now, you're crazy. having the advantages that parochials have, and being open enrollment are two different animals, open enrollment allows you to accept kids that want to attend your school, NOT actually target "certain kids".