Wayne Co. superintendents take on private vs. public debate

• Sonofanump

  thereddragin wrote:

  Sonofanump wrote:

  thereddragin wrote: Here is my suggestion to the "unfairness" that DOES SEEM to exist.... just a thought go ahead and rip me apart now
  
  *edit* this would go for both private and public schools

  In a vacuum this would work. But peer pressure would reduce those going out for the sport in order to keep the numbers down and in a lower division.

  and whats wrong with that? keep the kids that don't really want to be there away make them MAKE the team... rather than say ok we only have 30 boys so you can be on the team...
  
  personally i don't think they should change it.. cause when a public wins its that much sweeter... tho i do think there is an advantage..

  I fear it would look like this:
  
  D1- >40 boys
  D2- 35-39
  D3- 32-34
  D4- 29-31
  D5- 25-28
  D6- <24 boys
• AHM

  This is one of the oldest and most useless debates. Good catholic schools are good. Good public schools are good. They have something in common, supportive parents. communities and administrators. Bad catholic schools are bad. Bad public schools are bad. They have something in common, unsupportive parents, communities and administrators. The system will not change.
  
  As the football world marvels at the run that Mooney and Ursuline are on, it is important to remember that less than 10 years ago Mooney was 0-10 in football. Less than 5 years ago Ursuline was 3-7 in football.
• catchr22

  AHM--Totally agree!! The inherent difference is in the leadership, both administratively and athletically. I know, in the case of a local small private school, they cannot pay as much for coaching as other public schools can. As a result, the football coach must also hold an additional job responsibility to coaching and teaching in order to be more fairly compensated. In addition, this school demands much more of his time than the coach from the local "big school" who coaches, goes home after practice and does not spend nearly as much time at the school. A previous coach lost his family because of the amount of time he spent at the school. In looking at the successful public and private programs, look at the coaches. Does your coach have the same characteristics and ability to lead? While there are socio-economic differences that exist between the two, I would venture a guess that there is more leadership and character in the successful programs than those that are lagging!!!
• Dogruff Snauser

  Be True To Your School! If you have a Son or Daughter who is an athlete you must first consider what is BEST for them in the long run with respect to getting them ready for the real world....college/life. If they are not ready to compete in this screwed up society, they lose! As far as getting a better education in a private school vs. a public school, that is a complete crock! Acually there is absolutely NO data ANYWHERE that can substansiate that claim. It means NOTHING when you apply to college, it is your TEST SCORES that determine admission. Now as far as this private vs. public debate goes....is it fair? Absolutely NOT!!!! But then so is life not fair....Here is the reality....Private Schools recruit players (they all do) and that really sticks in most public school folks craw since the public program has to "deal" with who they get (a truely honest program). By virtue of the private schools recruiting tactics ($$$$), they generally are more successfull on the field and that creates a "higher level of play and competition within the league. My personal opinion is if you have a gifted athlete, get them into a good PUBLIC D1 or D2 school and become involved in that school to help make it better. If you have a less talented athlete and you want to see them play more, get them into a smaller PUBLIC school and become involved to help make it better. Are Private Schools better by design (as they claim) ? Maybe so and maybe there is some things that could be adopted because of that design making the public program better. Rather than taking on a "sour grape" mentallity on this subject (it really is sour too!), I submit a "Golden Rule" approach to this problem...."Do onto others as they do onto you" After all, it is those with the Gold that do all the ruling! I wonder how Robin Hood might have dealt with this issue?
• Wooster Rooster

  rmolin, I'd guess and don't think there are near as many private schools near the MAC teams to take a way a big part of your athlete base. You'd be singing a dift. tune if Akron, cleve, Columbus of Cincy privates were takin your kids like people getting jobbed around rest pf state. You just happen to be far enough in boonies to be away from it. I may be wrong, but dont remember a lot of private schools over there.
• Whatever

  Dogruff, the wife is an admissions officer at a local college. If you think public vs private there is no difference for the colleges, you are kidding yourself. Test scores are very important but so are grades. Further while test scores might help you GET IN to a college, it's your grades, scores, and all the extras you can put in there that get you any money or into the school you WANT. Sure a 3.0 and decent test score can get you into OSU, but you ain't getting any money. You aren't getting in an ivy league school, ect.
  
  It's interesting that anyone who is opposed to any type of change won't address the issue directly: it's always "well some private schools don't win" or "public would win if they just supported them" (like somehow you can force other parents who don't care about their kids education let alone extras to support something in a public setting?) or "hey a public school wins every once in a while!"
  
  It's not "sour grapes" as Dogruff says. It's simple facts. You can not compare the #s of a small public and a small private. The public school has populations that the private does not. To directly compare the two apples to apples is illogical and irrational. If you are fine with it okay, but don't pretend your unwillingness to look at facts means they aren't there!
• Al Bundy

  Wooster Rooster wrote: You'd be singing a dift. tune if Akron, cleve, Columbus of Cincy privates were takin your kids like people getting jobbed around rest pf state.

  If any school or coach is taking kids, I hope they are brought up on charges of kidnapping. If a family chooses to send their kids to a schools because they think that a school presents better opportunities for a kids, they have every right to do that.
• justcompete

  I'm going to turn the tables. In Columbus, the Catholic High Schools do not recruit, but the city schools have open enrollment where boys go to which ever place highlites their talent (see Brookhaven and Northland). DeSales has kids from both Brookhaven and Northlands neighborhoods and Watterson has kids from Upper Arlington, Hilliard and Dublin. Each of these schools/neighborhoods seem to be able to exist and excell in athletics. This is why you can not lump all private and public schools in the same category. NE Ohio openly recruits (public and private) and the SE Ohio Catholic schools just opened their enrollment 3 years ago, watch and see what happens down there in a couple of years. Good luck trying to make things "fair". Leave everything the way it is.
• rmolin73

  

  Wooster Rooster wrote: rmolin, I'd guess and don't think there are near as many private schools near the MAC teams to take a way a big part of your athlete base. You'd be singing a dift. tune if Akron, cleve, Columbus of Cincy privates were takin your kids like people getting jobbed around rest pf state. You just happen to be far enough in boonies to be away from it. I may be wrong, but dont remember a lot of private schools over there.

  First off I live in Sylvania no where near any of the MAC schools. I'm just tired of hearing all of you guys complain about the private schools. My Alma Mater Lowndes County High (Georgia) will play anyone public or private. If we lose we don't whine or complain like you guys do. It seems as if you all are asking for your own little rural school state title to me. There is one private school in that area and I believe it is Delphos St. Johns. But most of you guys are complaining about the Mooney's, Ursuline's, and Alter's who reside in D3-D5. Move them up with a multiplier and Mooney goes up to D2 and Ursuline to D3 that still won't save your schools because they probably aren't good enough to make it that far in the first place. The talent level in that pocket of NE Ohio is unreal you just have to admit it.
• Dogruff Snauser

  There are some things that a private education has to offer that the public system has let "slip away" that leads to success. If the Public system could somehow bring back these values, principles, and more importantly DISIPLINE...the "playing field" may be a bit more level. Most likely the privates would be the ones complaining!! Until that happens, the privates will continue to RECRUIT PLAYERS and piss off the public folks. The good news on this issue is....They bring a more competitive contribution to the sport and create the "higher" level by virtue of the design. Do they all recruit?.....HMMMM....Do you see Alice In Wonerland Sometimes? I would not want to play in a league without the privates, it makes victory all that much sweeter! Next time your Public school beats a Private, be sure to shake the coaches hand and say.."Thank You" as he gives most of his time and effort to help our kids and gets very little respect in return, just a lot of criticism and abuse. Public schools are gaining on this subject and coaches know that it is easier to coach talent. A Great Program attacts Great Athletes...Weak Progams RECRUIT and continue to be weak! Be True To Your School and help make it better...(IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERANCE WHEN IT COMES TO COLLEGE ADMISSION WHICH SCHOOL YOU GO TO)
• Whatever

  That just boggles my mind. You completely understand that private schools have an advantage (saying beating them makes it all the more sweet) yet just burry your head against it.
  
  rmolin73: that's wonderful that those Georgia schools take on all comers.
  
  of course the school has 2,741 high school students so that's not exactly saying much.
  
  It's also it funny you saying people are asking for their own titles: Ohio has 6 titles for 718 schools. Georgia 5 for 402. There are only 73 schools in the AAAAA division they compete in for a title. I don't think ANY are private schools! (given the cut off for SMALLEST AAAAA school in GA is 1850 that's not surprising.)
  
  Talking schools of that size and comparing that to the issues between public and private schools that have 200 or less students is apples and oranges and has zero meaning.
• catchr22

  This whole thread has no meaning. It's just a bunch of whining by a bunch of adults?????????? who have nothing better to do!! Life isn't always fair either, is someone wiping your nose and backside for you!! This thing has gotten out of control. Bag it!!!
• jm71witmr

  There a few thing most people forget or refuse to believe about private vs public schools.
  Starting with the private schools have the ability to cull their students. If they have learning disabilities, physical disabilities and so on the private school does not keep them. Testing to attend is a great tool for selecting students to be!
  If a student gets in a little trouble they can kick them out of school. If a student has bad grades they can kick them out.
  Well the public school does not have that ability, the public school has to provide a place of education for "all students".
  Private schools have higher standards. Well wait a minute, the public schools have to count the grades of "all students". The private schools count grades of all the students they choose to keep.
  
  The private schools have the benefit of parents being involved more with their students because they pay the tuition. The private school gives financial assistance to good athletes so of course a parent will make sure a student does the work, both in the classroom and on the field.
  The private school has the ability to control the curriculum offered, whereas the public has to abide by state controlled guidelines.
  The private school, I am not sure if they have to go through the state ranking process. If they do they don't make it available to the public.
  The public school with an excellent rating does as much or more for their students than a lot of private schools.
  As far as recruiting I understand the private schools have to reach out to get students. The recruiting of kids for athletics is not for the purpose of students filling the halls.
  
  I don't want separate championships or leagues because I believe the competition is much better with the private and public playing together. I would like the recruiting issues monitored thoroughly.
  I am not "whining or complaining", just voicing an opinion.
• catchr22

  JM--good post with good points. You are accurate in the differences. However, in the discussion of football wins or losses, I think there is much more responsibility for the failure of the majority of public and private programs that lose lies with the coaching in these programs. To be sure, I am not discounting the problems in the metro areas. However, in the rest of the state, I believe you will find that the the competition is evened out with the "open enrollment" of public programs.
• skank

  

  catchr22 wrote: This whole thread has no meaning. It's just a bunch of whining by a bunch of adults?????????? who have nothing better to do!! Life isn't always fair either, is someone wiping your nose and backside for you!! This thing has gotten out of control. Bag it!!!

  This
• skank

  

  catchr22 wrote: JM--good post with good points. You are accurate in the differences. However, in the discussion of football wins or losses, I think there is much more responsibility for the failure of the majority of public and private programs that lose lies with the coaching in these programs. To be sure, I am not discounting the problems in the metro areas. However, in the rest of the state, I believe you will find that the the competition is evened out with the "open enrollment" of public programs.

  Or this....Make up your mind.
• catchr22

  The first is my response to the length of this diatribe. The second was a response to some considerate points well-made!!!
• Hesston

  

  They mite as well piss in the wind as change the mind of the ohsaa geeks.
• 5knots

  

  I applaud them for the effort. A change is needed...I just don't know what it is. All I do know is that it would be a much more exciting environment in Canton and Massillon every December if there were 12 real towns in attendance rooting on there team. It would also be good for public schools to help raise community support, which in turn will help pass a levy when need be.
• Sonofanump

  jm71witmr wrote: I don't want separate championships or leagues because I believe the competition is much better with the private and public playing together. I would like the recruiting issues monitored thoroughly.
  I am not "whining or complaining", just voicing an opinion.

  Good post from a guy whose school plays three good catholic schools in league every year.
• Sonofanump

  5knots wrote:All I do know is that it would be a much more exciting environment in Canton and Massillon every December if there were 12 real towns in attendance rooting on there team.

  The atmosphere and excitement of the little private D6 game was much better than the large public D2 the night before.
• Rocket08

  5knots wrote: I applaud them for the effort. A change is needed...I just don't know what it is. All I do know is that it would be a much more exciting environment in Canton and Massillon every December if there were 12 real towns in attendance rooting on there team. It would also be good for public schools to help raise community support, which in turn will help pass a levy when need be.

  Give 'em all atrophy you wuss
• jm71witmr

  Good post from a guy whose school plays three good catholic schools in league every year.
  [/quote]
  
  Thanks Sonofanump,
  Whitmer does play 3 very good catholic schools in a league with both public and private schools. The games are always competitive and have a great love/hate atmosphere. We all love to beat each other and hate to lose to each other.
  
  The thing Whitmer as a public school is trying to do is keep our resident kids attending our schools, along with hoping families with kids move into the Washington Local School (WLS) district. You see WLS students have to reside within the district boundaries. The residents of the district continue supporting the kids by passing levies which works hand in hand with the school board in providing the schools with the educational tools necessary for a good education. This includes maintaining and improving the buildings and facilities, providing a good environment.
  I could go on but my point is to be competitive on the field we need to invest and provide off the field as well.
  It takes a community to raise a kid!
• Al Bundy

  jm71witmr wrote: Good post from a guy whose school plays three good catholic schools in league every year.

  Thanks Sonofanump,
  Whitmer does play 3 very good catholic schools in a league with both public and private schools. The games are always competitive and have a great love/hate atmosphere. We all love to beat each other and hate to lose to each other.
  
  The thing Whitmer as a public school is trying to do is keep our resident kids attending our schools, along with hoping families with kids move into the Washington Local School (WLS) district. You see WLS students have to reside within the district boundaries. The residents of the district continue supporting the kids by passing levies which works hand in hand with the school board in providing the schools with the educational tools necessary for a good education. This includes maintaining and improving the buildings and facilities, providing a good environment.
  I could go on but my point is to be competitive on the field we need to invest and provide off the field as well.
  It takes a community to raise a kid!
  [/quote]
  
  Great post! It is great that you and others in your community try to do everything to improve the school for the kids and community. It is nice to see someone who wants to improve their schools instead of trying to bring down other schools.
• fossywriter8

  Crunched the numbers to get the following enrollment cutoffs if the 1.65 multiplier (per the newspaper story) was used.
  The cutoff numbers for private schools for each sport's division would be as follows (current and public numbers in parentheses):
  Football
  Division I: 314 and more (518 and more)
  Division II: 211-313 (348-517)
  Division III: 153-210 (252-347)
  Division IV: 107-152 (177-251)
  Division V: 76-106 (125-176)
  Division VI: 75 and less (124 and less)
  
  Volleyball
  Division I: 224 and more (370 and more)
  Division II: 131-223 (214-369)
  Division III: 76-130 (125-213)
  Division IV: 75 and less (124 and less)
  
  Boys Golf
  Division I: 194 and more (321 and more)
  Division II: 99-193 (164-320)
  Division III: 98 and less (163 and less)
  
  Girls Golf
  Division I: 193 and more (318 and more)
  Division II: 192 and less (317 and less)
  
  Boys Soccer
  Division I: 245 and more (405 and more)
  Division II: 128-244 (211-404 and more)
  Division III: 127 and less (210 and less)
  
  Girls Soccer
  Division I: 170 and more (281 and more)
  Division II: 169 and less (280 and less)
  
  Boys Cross Country
  Division I: 216 and more (357 and more)
  Division II: 111-215 (183-356)
  Division III: 110 and less (182 and less)
  
  Girls Cross Country
  Division I: 214 and more (354 and more)
  Division II: 113-213 (187-353)
  Division III: 112 and less (186 and less)
  
  Girls Tennis
  Division I: 208 and more (343 and more)
  Division II: 207 and less (342 and less)
  
  Boys Basketball
  Division I: 242 and more (400 and more)
  Division II: 136-241 (224-399)
  Division III: 78-135 (129-223)
  Division IV: 77 and less (128 and less)
  
  Girls Basketball
  Division I: 225 and more (371 and more)
  Division II: 130-224 (215-370)
  Division III: 76-129 (125-214)
  Division IV: 75 and less (124 and less)
  
  Girls Swimming and Diving
  Division I: 213 and more (352 and more)
  Division II: 212 and less (351 and less)
  
  Boys Swimming and Diving
  Division I: 243 and more (401 and more)
  Division II: 242 and less (400 and less)
  
  Wrestling
  Division I: 257 and more (424 and more)
  Division II: 141-247 (232-423)
  Division III: 140 and less (231 and less)
  
  Baseball
  Division I: 248 and more (409 and more)
  Division II: 141-247 (232-408)
  Division III: 81-140 (134-231)
  Division IV: 80 and less (133 and less)
  
  Softball
  Division I: 232 and more (383 and more)
  Division II: 134-231 (222-382)
  Division III: 77-133 (127-221)
  Division IV: 76 and less (126 and less)
  
  Boys Track and Field
  Division I: 202 and more (334 and more)
  Division II: 101-201 (167-333)
  Division III: 100 and less (166 and less)
  
  Girls Track and Field
  Division I: 197 and more (325 and more)
  Division II: 99-196 (164-324)
  Division III: 98 and less (163 and less)
  
  Boys Tennis
  Division I: 212 and more (350 and more)
  Division II: 211 and less (349 and less)