Ohio Chatter DEV

SQ_Crazies

Sonofanump wrote:
Footwedge wrote: A facemask penalty is a face mask penalty. The refs blew it. What a shame.
Incorrect. The NFL and NCAA do not have 5 yard facemask fouls, it has to be a personal foul, twisting or pulling of the facemask.

Wrong.

It used to be pulling or twisting was 15 and a little grab was 5. Now it's ALL 15, they don't just let little grabs go. They're all personal fouls now.

SQ_Crazies

Sonofanump wrote:
SQ_Crazies wrote: I was under the impression that it would have been Arizona's ball, they just obviously would have called back the TD.
If the foul occurred while Arizona had possession then you would have been correct.

No I think I am correct.

Sonofanump

My bad, you know more about NFL rules than I do. Of course I officiate at four different levels with four sets of rules, so I could be confused.

Manhattan Buckeye

Peter King's take:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/10/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp

Scroll down, he says you have to twist or pull. The guy definitely hit his facemask, but with the ball already out and the officials likely following the ball, I don't see how anyone can blame the officials too much for it, and it isn't as if the facemask affected the play.

SQ_Crazies

You don't have to twist or pull--it's all based on what the official sees. That's how the rule is written but what happened would get called 99.9% of the time in the NFL. They just didn't see it, the play was kind of out of control--I doubt any official had eyes on the QB at the time.

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote: You don't have to twist or pull--it's all based on what the official sees. That's how the rule is written but what happened would get called 99.9% of the time in the NFL.

Could you show me the rule in print?

SQ_Crazies wrote: I doubt any official had eyes on the QB at the time.

As you already know being an expert on NFL rules, the referee (the man in the white hat for those of you not knowing the positions of the game officials) is responsible for the QB. His precedence was changed to whether or not the ball strikes the ground once the ball became loose, so no official at that time would have seen the foul if one did exist.

SQ_Crazies

WTF is your deal? lol, you're awful at trying to be a hardass.

Footwedge

LTrain23 wrote:
Footwedge wrote: Flag should have been thrown. The Packers had their choice of A. Losing the game on the play or B. accepting the penalty and having a first down on the 33 yard line.

A facemask penalty is a face mask penalty. The refs blew it. What a shame.
Actually, had the facemask been called, it STILL would have been Arizona ball, they just wouldn't have gotten the TD as a result of the play..

I hate when people bitch about missed calls though. Shit happens. Get over it.

Like you've never bitched about bad calls. What exactly is your problem here LTrain?

If those calls (offensive pass interference on Fitzgerald for example) had ended the Browns Super Bowl hopes, your tune would be a whole lot different.

Bad calls are always discussed on internet forums. I think it's time for you to get over it.

Sonofanump

I have let you know that you are incorrect to clarify for those reading the this thread.
I am not stating opinions, I am stating facts. Not sure why you would respond to my factual statements with incorrect opinions.
It is OK to be incorrect, most fans do not know (all of) the rules of the game. Actually, most game announcers misspeak on rules all the time.

SQ_Crazies

What am I wrong about? There are no 5 yard facemask penalties anymore...

What the hell do you officiate? 8th graders?

SQ_Crazies

Sonofanump wrote:
SQ_Crazies wrote: I doubt any official had eyes on the QB at the time.
As you already know being an expert on NFL rules, the referee (the man in the white hat for those of you not knowing the positions of the game officials) is responsible for the QB. His precedence was changed to whether or not the ball strikes the ground once the ball became loose, so no official at that time would have seen the foul if one did exist.

I realize this, that is why I said it. He wasn't watching for a facemask because the ball was out...no shit Sherlock. That's why it didn't get called, that's what I said. It's not IF one existed, because it definitely happened, he just didn't see it. It isn't reviewable because it's a judgement call, hence why not twisting and pulling still gets called if you grab a facemask. And if you want to argue that this shouldn't have been called then you're a SHITTY official:

I'm not being critical of the crew, I understand why they didn't see it--but they should have, it's their job. They miss all kinds of shit, you can't see everything. It's just a shame they didn't see it and call it and a GREAT game ended on a bullshit fluke play. I would have liked to see Arizona earn it, that's all.

Care to lecture me and tell me I don't know the rules some more? Get off your OHSAA high horse or whatever the fuck you officiate and stop trying to be a badass...maybe you need to study the rules.

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote: What am I wrong about? There are no 5 yard facemask penalties anymore...

1) Possession is needed prior to the foul to retain the ball, i.e. clean hands.

2) Facemask fouls need to be personal foul types now, i.e. twist and/or pull. Grasping the face mask is not an automatic 15 yard PF. The old 5 yard foul is not now a 15 yard foul, it does not exist.

SQ_Crazies wrote: What the hell do you officiate? 8th graders?

Not even close, but funny that you would result to such a accusation.

SQ_Crazies

And BTW, have you ever seen a horizontal zebra?

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote:Care to lecture me and tell me I don't know the rules some more?

If you need me to I will.

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote: And BTW, have you ever seen a horizontal zebra?

Nope, I deal with civil law, not criminal.

SQ_Crazies

Sonofanump wrote:
SQ_Crazies wrote: What am I wrong about? There are no 5 yard facemask penalties anymore...
1) Possession is needed prior to the foul to retain the ball, i.e. clean hands.

2) Facemask fouls need to be personal foul types now, i.e. twist and/or pull. Grasping the face mask is not an automatic 15 yard PF. The old 5 yard foul is not now a 15 yard foul, it does not exist.

When did I say they should have retained the ball? I don't think they should have, your reading comprehension is lacking.

And again, facemasks are judgement calls and a simple grasp gets flagged still VERY OFTEN. I know that the rule states it has to be a twist or a pull--but it also isn't reviewable because it's the officials judgement. Based on them having a say on what is twisting and pulling you see a simple grasp get flagged for 15 yards all the time.

So if it's not 8th grade, I clearly overestimated your abilities.

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote: I was under the impression that it would have been Arizona's ball, they just obviously would have called back the TD.

Glory Days

He grabbed and HELD the facemask, that is a penalty. it wasnt a quick grab and let go. he held it for a good amount of time.

Strapping Young Lad

Soon as that ball popped out that's where the officials eyes went. That's life.

grass_licker

PETTY get over it go cardinals

Society

Sonofanump wrote:
SQ_Crazies wrote: I was under the impression that it would have been Arizona's ball, they just obviously would have called back the TD.

Sure is kind of funny how sq isn't around to defend this statement. I actually think he might be playing 8th grade football.

SQ_Crazies

Huh? The penalty was against Arizona but it was after the ball was out....therefore I said I think they would have had the ball and GB WOULDN'T have retained it....

Sonofanump

SQ_Crazies wrote: Huh? The penalty was against Arizona but it was after the ball was out....therefore I said I think they would have had the ball and GB WOULDN'T have retained it....

Wow. This just keeps getting better.

I'll post the rule for you to try to see if you can understand it. The NFL does not post their rule book online, so I'll post from the NCAA which no changes are made for NFL.

Foul Before Change of Team Possession
ARTICLE 3. a. If a penalty is accepted for a foul that occurs between the goal lines before a change of team possession during a scrimmage down, the ball belongs to Team A. The down shall be repeated unless the penalty also involves loss of a down, mandates a first down, or leaves the ball on or beyond the line to gain.

When Ball Is Loose

ARTICLE 6. When the ball is loose, no player shall hold an opponent;
illegally block an opponent in the back; twist, turn or pull an opponent’s
face mask or any helmet opening; or illegally use his hands or commit a
personal foul (A.R. 7-3-9-II).

Loose Ball
ARTICLE 3. a. A loose ball is a live ball not in player possession during:
1. A running play.
3. The interval after a legal forward pass is touched and before it
becomes complete, incomplete or intercepted. This interval is during
a forward pass play, and any player eligible to touch the ball may bat
it in any direction.

b. A team has team possession:
(2) While a forward pass thrown by one of its players is in flight; or
(3) During a loose ball if one of its players was last in possession.

SQ_Crazies

LOL, you're not making any sense.

I said that Arizona should have had the ball, yet it should have been called back due to the facemask penalty. If I'm wrong then how come there are articles all over the place that were written about the call being missed? It should have been Arizona's ball, but the TD should have been called back due to the facemask.

I don't know what the hell you're trying to explain to me.

Glory Days

so from what i get, the ball was consider loose because

The interval after a legal forward pass is touched and before it becomes complete, incomplete or intercepted. This interval is during a forward pass play, and any player eligible to touch the ball may bat it in any direction

and GB had possession while the ball was loose because

(3) During a loose ball if one of its players was last in possession.

so according to

ARTICLE 3. a. If a penalty is accepted for a foul that occurs between the goal lines before a change of team possession during a scrimmage down, the ball belongs to Team A.

GB should still have the ball since the penalty occured during the loose ball while GB still technically had possession?

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