Cavs @ Lakers
-
Y-Town Steelhound
thedynasty1998;635364 wrote:Completely agree with this. Lebron probably did have too much power. Gilbert had to have known when Lebron refused to sign an extension that there was a chance he would leave.
But now the problem is that the NBA is so top heavy with young talent, can they really get back to a championship caliber team within 5-7 years? The Heat are young. The Lakers and Boston will always be near the top of the NBA. Chicago and Oklahoma City will continue to improve.
Yea but you have teams like Dallas and San Antonio that will fall off a bit in the next few years because of age. The Celtics may have to be mediocre for a bit when the big three get old enough, Sloan will be done coaching soon (one would think) so that drops the Jazz in the next few years, the Nuggets will bomb without Melo next year, etc. While you do have teams getting better within the next few years, you also have teams that will get worse. It's the constant up and down of the NBA. You can also become competitive within a few years of being terrible....Celtics did it, Cavs did it, Sonics/Thunder did it, Pistons did it. Just takes some good front office moves. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe the Cavs could be back to a title contender within 5-7 years....that's a LONG ass time. -
thedynasty1998
Fly4Fun;635365 wrote:Ummm, no. When someone makes a commitment as an adult, he should be expected to either fulfill that commitment or try your best to fulfill it. LeBron did neither because he left early.
I'm sorry that you don't understand the concept that a man's word should mean something. And yes, he was an adult when he made that statement.
You have to be kidding me that you really think Lebron "lied" about a championship. Was it his intent to win a championship? Yes. But you can't say that he went against his word by not delivering. What if he would have retired as a Cav and never won a Championship, is he still a liar? Guys guarantee victories in sports all the time, but they are not considered liars if they are wrong. They are just considered wrong. -
thedynasty1998
Y-Town Steelhound;635371 wrote:Yea but you have teams like Dallas and San Antonio that will fall off a bit in the next few years because of age. The Celtics may have to be mediocre for a bit when the big three get old enough, Sloan will be done coaching soon (one would think) so that drops the Jazz in the next few years, the Nuggets will bomb without Melo next year, etc. While you do have teams getting better within the next few years, you also have teams that will get worse. It's the constant up and down of the NBA. You can also become competitive within a few years of being terrible....Celtics did it, Cavs did it, Sonics/Thunder did it, Pistons did it. Just takes some good front office moves. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe the Cavs could be back to a title contender within 5-7 years....that's a LONG ass time.
Celtics did it because they are the Celtics. History was on their side.
Cavs did it because they were able to draft one of the greatest of all time.
Thunder did it in similar fashion as the Cavs, but yes, because of good drafts.
So Oklahoma City has to be the blueprint, but it's as much about luck as anything.
Denver won't be as good, but someone else will once Carmelo lands elsewhere. If he goes to the Knicks, they are in that discussion as an elite team.
Also, places like San Antonio and Dallas are much more attractive to free agents than a place like Cleveland. Just the economic environment and social culture are two other factors working against Cleveland. -
Fly4Fun
thedynasty1998;635372 wrote:You have to be kidding me that you really think Lebron "lied" about a championship. Was it his intent to win a championship? Yes. But you can't say that he went against his word by not delivering. What if he would have retired as a Cav and never won a Championship, is he still a liar? Guys guarantee victories in sports all the time, but they are not considered liars if they are wrong. They are just considered wrong.
A person lies when they break their word. LeBron did that. If he stayed with Cleveland till the end of his days and didn't win a championship. He would have done all he can so he wouldn't have lied. But he left early.
A guarantee is only a lie if the person voluntarily leaves or gives up without doing all they could have to win within reason. That's what LeBron did. -
thedynasty1998
Fly4Fun;635377 wrote:A person lies when they break their word. LeBron did that. If he stayed with Cleveland till the end of his days and didn't win a championship. He would have done all he can so he wouldn't have lied. But he left early.
A guarantee is only a lie if the person voluntarily leaves or gives up without doing all they could have to win within reason. That's what LeBron did.
One's word is his word. Retirement doesn't change that.
We can agree to disagree, but IMO your stance that Lebron lied is very childish. -
Y-Town Steelhound
thedynasty1998;635367 wrote:You can use that excuse about the talent level going forward. But up to this point in the season the Cavs had their players. Yes, going forward, you play the young guys and keep your fingers crossed that the lottery balls bounce the right way.
But last year guys like Darnell Jackson, Daniel Green and Jawad Williams were getting minutes. That that much of a difference.
They weren't playing nearly the minutes that these young guys are playing this year. Really if you look to one move that really screwed the Cavs, it was Gund trusting Boozer and not simply signing his extension. He signs the extension, the Cavs retain Boozer's bird rights and since we all know Carlos loves money....he'd probably still be a Cavalier and who knows if the Cavs might have a ring in that time. Another move that screwed them was signing Larry Hughes after whiffing on Allen, Redd, and Joe Johnson. Had they gotten one of those guys (though you never know with Redd's injury history) they would've surely contributed much more than Hughes and you again have a what-if scenario.
Regardless, I don't think the Cavs could've done anything to keep LeBron for another contract (and that includes winning a championship(s). I think that would have just made it easier for him to leave because he could've said "see I brought you that championship now it's time for me to move on). I think it's a case of a guy who likes being a celebrity more than being a great basketball player and wanted to move from the place where he lived for 20+ years. He knows he doesn't have that MJ/Kobe killer instinct, so he goes to a team where someone does have it (Wade) and he can simply play his crazy stat games and live like a rock star....which would've been fine had he been a little more classy about his departure as opposed to hosting a one hour tv special in the last week of free agency. -
wildcats20
Fly4Fun;635377 wrote:A person lies when they break their word. LeBron did that. If he stayed with Cleveland till the end of his days and didn't win a championship. He would have done all he can so he wouldn't have lied. But he left early.
But he didn't win a championship. Which is what he said he was going to do. So therefore he would have lied by not winning it.
You can't add stipulations after you've been proven wrong. Just like the Gilbert example. Gilbert said the Cavs will win a ring before Lebron does. That isn't going to happen(based on the 2 teams now). So Gilbert will be a liar once Bron wins one. -
thedynasty1998
Y-Town Steelhound;635380 wrote:They weren't playing nearly the minutes that these young guys are playing this year. Really if you look to one move that really screwed the Cavs, it was Gund trusting Boozer and not simply signing his extension. He signs the extension, the Cavs retain Boozer's bird rights and since we all know Carlos loves money....he'd probably still be a Cavalier and who knows if the Cavs might have a ring in that time. Another move that screwed them was signing Larry Hughes after whiffing on Allen, Redd, and Joe Johnson. Had they gotten one of those guys (though you never know with Redd's injury history) they would've surely contributed much more than Hughes and you again have a what-if scenario.
Regardless, I don't think the Cavs could've done anything to keep LeBron for another contract (and that includes winning a championship(s). I think that would have just made it easier for him to leave because he could've said "see I brought you that championship now it's time for me to move on). I think it's a case of a guy who likes being a celebrity more than being a great basketball player and wanted to move from the place where he lived for 20+ years. He knows he doesn't have that MJ/Kobe killer instinct, so he goes to a team where someone does have it (Wade) and he can simply play his crazy stat games and live like a rock star....which would've been fine had he been a little more classy about his departure as opposed to hosting a one hour tv special in the last week of free agency.
Very good post. I agree with this completely, minus Lebron lacking the killer instinct.
And if anyone is a liar, it's Boozer. -
Y-Town Steelhound
thedynasty1998;635376 wrote:Celtics did it because they are the Celtics. History was on their side.
Cavs did it because they were able to draft one of the greatest of all time.
Thunder did it in similar fashion as the Cavs, but yes, because of good drafts.
So Oklahoma City has to be the blueprint, but it's as much about luck as anything.
Denver won't be as good, but someone else will once Carmelo lands elsewhere. If he goes to the Knicks, they are in that discussion as an elite team.
Also, places like San Antonio and Dallas are much more attractive to free agents than a place like Cleveland. Just the economic environment and social culture are two other factors working against Cleveland.
Oh it definitely has to do with luck. To win a championship you have to have the right players (that play well with each other), the right coach, and a season with little to no major injuries along with hoping that the other team doesn't put on an all time performance from the 3 point line (see 2009 ECF). My point is that it CAN happen. All it takes is a few good drafts and a few good trades.
You're right that Cleveland isn't a great destination, but neither is Detroit...yet they were able to get great players and win championships. I'm sorry but the city just isn't an excuse. If you have enough cash and you're willing to spend it (which all indications point to Dan Gilbert having both) you can assemble a great team if you make the right decisions on players. -
Fly4Fun
If someone tells you they are going to do something and they try to do it to the best of their ability but ultimately fail. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
If someone tells you they are going to do something and they don't try to do it to the best of their ability and give up half way because it was hard. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
It's that simple. If you can't see the difference between the two situations there is nothing more I can say. -
Commander of Awesome
[video=youtube;7IU1bzZheWk][/video] -
Y-Town Steelhound
thedynasty1998;635383 wrote:Very good post. I agree with this completely, minus Lebron lacking the killer instinct.
And if anyone is a liar, it's Boozer.
Well agree to disagree on it then. I just have always viewed LeBron as being a guy supremely more gifted at the game of basketball than anyone else on the planet, but lacking the desire and drive to work on his game to the point where it reaches its full potential.
And you're right Boozer IS more of a liar, yet you don't see the same hate for Boozer that you do with LeBron despite him arguably doing a worse act.....why? Because Boozer didn't go on ESPN for an hour to announce he was taking his talents to salt lake city. If any argument shows how much the way LeBron left had to do with the hate being poured upon him, rather than him simply leaving....it's that one. -
Y-Town Steelhound
Fly4Fun;635386 wrote:If someone tells you they are going to do something and they try to do it to the best of their ability but ultimately fail. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
If someone tells you they are going to do something and they don't try to do it to the best of their ability and give up half way because it was hard. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
It's that simple. If you can't see the difference between the two situations there is nothing more I can say.
"I have a goal, and that's a big goal, and that's to bring an NBA Championship to Cleveland...and I won't stop until I get it."
He should've added "unless my contract is up" to the end of it. It's a lie, but pro athletes lie like this all the time. The problem was that us Cleveland fans, so longing for that elusive championship, saw the hometown hero who never gets into legal trouble standing up for the city instead of the egotistical young stud from the ghetto who suddenly has all the money and fame in the world and just wanted to say what people wanted to hear. Lesson learned Cleveland.....you would've thought that after Jim Thome, we would know better. -
thedynasty1998
Boozer wasn't a MVP and a local hero. The hour long special has little to do with it.
-
Fab4Runner
Boo to this thread. Boo to Lebron. Boo to the Cavs. But, I still love them. -
Fab4Runner
You're wrong. It has a lot to do with it. Every true Cavs fan I know would agree with me and we have no reason to lie about it. Does it hurt that he's gone and we are terrible? Of course. But it also hurt to see him leave the way he did.thedynasty1998;635398 wrote:Boozer wasn't a MVP and a local hero. The hour long special has little to do with it. -
thedynasty1998
Fly4Fun;635386 wrote:If someone tells you they are going to do something and they try to do it to the best of their ability but ultimately fail. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
If someone tells you they are going to do something and they don't try to do it to the best of their ability and give up half way because it was hard. Are they a liar or did they just simply fall short of their goal?
It's that simple. If you can't see the difference between the two situations there is nothing more I can say.
Lebron didn't give up after 4 years. He tried his best for 8 years, and to say he didn't isn't true. You don't win 60+ regular season games by not giving the best of his ability. The funny thing is that even if the Cavs would have beat Boston that one game, they still would have lost the series and certainly were not going to beat the Lakers. The Championship wasn't going to happen regardless last year. -
thedynasty1998
Fab4Runner;635400 wrote:You're wrong. It has a lot to do with it. Every true Cavs fan I know would agree with me and we have no reason to lie about it. Does it hurt that he's gone and we are terrible? Of course. But it also hurt to see him leave the way he did.
You are completely wrong. Yes, it has some to do with it. But regardless of how Lebron left he would have been hated. Did he make things worse? Yes, he did. But there was no right way to leave. -
like_that
thedynasty1998;635403 wrote:You are completely wrong. Yes, it has some to do with it. But regardless of how Lebron left he would have been hated. Did he make things worse? Yes, he did. But there was no right way to leave.
Now you are telling people how they feel? LMAO. This is exactly why I said you are not a Browns fan. You are way out of touch of what it is to be a Cleveland fan. -
Fab4Runner
thedynasty1998;635403 wrote:You are completely wrong. Yes, it has some to do with it. But regardless of how Lebron left he would have been hated. Did he make things worse? Yes, he did. But there was no right way to leave.
I am not wrong. I said it hurt that he left and we are horrible. Period. Of course he would be hated either way (by some, not all) but to say that "The Decision" has little to do with peoples feelings toward him is absolutely false. There are non Cavs fans everywhere that dislike him because of what he did (hence the boos in every arena). If they were disappointed I'd say that actual Cavs fans have every reason to be even more passionate about it. -
Y-Town Steelhound
I'd say that "The Decision" had a lot to do with it. You're right that there was no right way to leave, but it wouldn't have been any worse than any other superstar leaving a city (Shaq-Orlando, KG-Minnesota though he was traded, etc.) had LeBron said gone on tv when Wade and Bosh did and said "I spent 7 great years in Cleveland, I've spent 25 great years in Ohio, Northeast Ohio will always be home to me...I just feel that I'm at a point in my life where I need to move on and take on new challenges and opportunities to play with guys I'm proud to call my friends. I want to thank the Cleveland Cavaliers organization and the great fans of northeast Ohio for supporting me these last 7 years and help me grow from an 18 year old kid into a man. I know we didn't accomplish our goal, but I hope I was able to bring an excitement and winning attitude to the Cavs that I hope will continue in the future."
See, I came up with that in 2 minutes off the top of my head. One of LeBron's apparently worthless PR guys couldn't have done the same? Do you think the anger would've been on LeBron or the Cavs/Gilbert had he said that? He didn't even have to mean it (which we all know he wouldn't have) but it would've saved his public image nationally and in Cleveland BIG TIME. So it was, in LARGE part, about how he left. -
Fab4Runner
Y-Town Steelhound;635417 wrote:I'd say that "The Decision" had a lot to do with it. You're right that there was no right way to leave, but it wouldn't have been any worse than any other superstar leaving a city (Shaq-Orlando, KG-Minnesota though he was traded, etc.) had LeBron said gone on tv when Wade and Bosh did and said "I spent 7 great years in Cleveland, I've spent 25 great years in Ohio, Northeast Ohio will always be home to me...I just feel that I'm at a point in my life where I need to move on and take on new challenges and opportunities to play with guys I'm proud to call my friends. I want to thank the Cleveland Cavaliers organization and the great fans of northeast Ohio for supporting me these last 7 years and help me grow from an 18 year old kid into a man. I know we didn't accomplish our goal, but I hope I was able to bring an excitement and winning attitude to the Cavs that I hope will continue in the future."
See, I came up with that in 2 minutes off the top of my head. One of LeBron's apparently worthless PR guys couldn't have done the same? Do you think the anger would've been on LeBron or the Cavs/Gilbert had he said that? He didn't even have to mean it (which we all know he wouldn't have) but it would've saved his public image nationally and in Cleveland BIG TIME. So it was, in LARGE part, about how he left.
I think taking his talents to South Beach sounds way better. -
Red Saul
Dan Gilbert is a moron. -
like_that
Red Saul;635427 wrote:Dan Gilbert is a moron.
You realize you have no credibility on this site? Try posting on one username, and maybe you can work your way to credibility. -
Red Saul
like_that;635434 wrote:You realize you have no credibility on this site? Try posting on one username, and maybe you can work your way to credibility.
That is what I want to get, credibility on a internet message board.
I dont care what you or anyone else thinks, but if that is what you want to do then go ahead.