So, a guy I knew left his wife for his sister ...

• Con_Alma

  I Wear Pants;1542900 wrote:False, you'll not find many people (perhaps not any) who created or advocate for the law saying that the reason for it is that we just, really need to punish people that do drugs. They're bad and they need to pay for doing drugs by being arrested, with deadly force if needed, and locked in a cage for decades.
  
  No, the law was and is intended to protect the public health from the effects of addiction and the violence that comes with the drug trade. The problem is that the law has not reduced addiction or use and has increased the violence while at the same time spending massive sums of money. You cannot spin that as a success. It is a complete failure.

  ????
  
  I view it as a success. Nothing more.
  
  The feds have an obligation to uphold the law. That's why they take such action. I expect them to do so until til the laws are changed.
  
  There are laws in place that don't deter action but rather do nothing more than punish. The illegality of drugs, the death penalty, simple traffic violations are just some examples.
• Heretic

  

  Con_Alma;1542897 wrote:That's not the belief of all people.

  And neither is the whole weed thing. I don't think it should be illegal, therefore the laws aren't the belief of all people.
• queencitybuckeye

  Con_Alma;1542903 wrote:Are you suggesting there wasn't a believed reason for it to be illegal when it was legislated????
  
  For laws such as this to be reversed or overturned they tend to require either a judicial ruling of unconstitutionality or a mass majority putting pressure on their representative. I believe that will happen sooner than later....just not today. It's clear society is moving in that direction.

  I'm not aware that the majority of people needed to overturn such foolishness need be any greater than the majority required to pass it in the first place.
• Con_Alma

  Heretic;1542907 wrote:And neither is the whole weed thing. I don't think it should be illegal, therefore the laws aren't the belief of all people.

  That may very well be. If the masses pressure their legislators the law can be changed. I think this will happen eventually but it hasn't yet.
• Con_Alma

  queencitybuckeye;1542908 wrote:I'm not aware that the majority of people needed to overturn such foolishness need be any greater than the majority required to pass it in the first place.

  Your awareness might come from this exact law. It hasn't been overturned. I think it will take the masses having a favorable desire to get it so. It's not a need so much as what is slowly happening.
• justincredible

  

  I just can't fathom how someone can view legislation that has violently murdered fellow citizens, locked millions in cages (to potentially be violently assaulted), because "drugs are bad" as a success. It absolutely boggles my mind.
• sleeper

  

  /Con-Alma'd
• Con_Alma

  justincredible;1542914 wrote:I just can't fathom how someone can view legislation that has violently murdered fellow citizens, locked millions in cages (to potentially be violently assaulted), because "drugs are bad" as a success. It absolutely boggles my mind.

  I appreciate you being honest with your declaration of not understanding. I hope I have never said "drugs are bad". They are simply illegal. Morality is subjective.
• I Wear Pants

  Con_Alma;1542906 wrote:????
  
  I view it as a success. Nothing more.
  
  The feds have an obligation to uphold the law. That's why they take such action. I expect them to do so until til the laws are changed.
  
  There are laws in place that don't deter action but rather do nothing more than punish. The illegality of drugs, the death penalty, simple traffic violations are just some examples.

  That may be the case for some laws but it is not the case for the drug war. The laws were and currently are in place to deter use and the societal effects of use and the drug trade. That's not speculation, that's how the laws were explained initially, it's how they're currently lobbied for, it's how the people running the organizations enforcing them describe and defend them. You are wrong about the purpose of the drug war.
• ohiobucks1

  

  Con_Alma;1542868 wrote:The majority???? Maybe, maybe not. They are a reflection of the representatives of the people at the time they are legislated.

  
  Exactly. I realize you guys all believe (and possibly rightfully so) that the majority doesn't always get what they want (and some of you believe the minorities are being screwed) but our system is based on the belief that our reps represent us, and criminal codes are made by those reps and upheld and reversed by judges all around the country. Laws are made to uphold societies norms, though.
• justincredible

  

  Con_Alma;1542919 wrote:I appreciate you being honest with your declaration of not understanding. I hope I have never said "drugs are bad". They are simply illegal. Morality is subjective.

  I guess I'm glad I'm able to look past the legality of things to see what is right and wrong. I'm not saying smoking weed is right. But subjecting someone to prison rape for smoking it is absolutely wrong. Anyone that thinks it is morally superior to lock someone in a cage for smoking pot than to just leave them alone is an asshole.
• Heretic

  

  justincredible;1542914 wrote:I just can't fathom how someone can view legislation that has violently murdered fellow citizens, locked millions in cages (to potentially be violently assaulted), because "drugs are bad" as a success. It absolutely boggles my mind.

  That's what happens when people look at things in the most robotic, impersonal way possible (ie: ConAlma'd) instead of putting any effort into looking at ramifications and the big picture.
  
  Which leads to "drugs are bad/laws punish drug users/therefore laws are good". With no thought whatsoever about any of the rational thought about the ungodly amount of wasted money combined with how it does nothing to actually solve any drug-related problem.
  
  But it's a success at grabbing money in fines (because it's a lot easier to just ticket/cite regular people for low-tier offenses than it would be to actually do anything that might solve a problem) and so it's a success. Period.
  
  A complete inability to show reasoning at its best!
• ohiobucks1

  

  justincredible;1542927 wrote:I guess I'm glad I'm able to look past the legality of things to see what is right and wrong. I'm not saying smoking weed is right. But subjecting someone to prison rape for smoking it is absolutely wrong. Anyone that thinks it is morally superior to lock someone in a cage for smoking pot than to just leave them alone is an asshole.

  I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that our system is based on the belief that if enough people agree with you, then there will be no punishment for smoking. As of now, the tides are turning.
  
  
  
  Incest is wrong. I'm sure 99.5% of America agrees, and the laws (enforced or not) are there because society deems them necessary enough to not repeal.
• Con_Alma

  I Wear Pants;1542925 wrote:That may be the case for some laws but it is not the case for the drug war. The laws were and currently are in place to deter use and the societal effects of use and the drug trade. That's not speculation, that's how the laws were explained initially, it's how they're currently lobbied for, it's how the people running the organizations enforcing them describe and defend them. You are wrong about the purpose of the drug war.

  I haven't addressed the purpose of the drug war. I have expressed my views on the drug laws being a success or not.
  
  If you choose to proclaim the failure of the war on drugs based on deterrence, I have no qualms about that. It doesn't change my belief of the effective nature of local and federal enforcement agencies penalizing those who break the law along with what it will take to make marijuana legal. A failed war on drugs won't do it. Ever changing societal values and desires will. That realization is making more of an impact that cries of an ineffective drug war.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  If the govt. wants to make money on drugs, then just start issuing hefty (DUI level) fines for being caught (in public, not your home) smoking pot. Don't lock 'em up, just fine them, and let them go about their business.
• Con_Alma

  justincredible;1542927 wrote:I guess I'm glad I'm able to look past the legality of things to see what is right and wrong. I'm not saying smoking weed is right. But subjecting someone to prison rape for smoking it is absolutely wrong. Anyone that thinks it is morally superior to lock someone in a cage for smoking pot than to just leave them alone is an asshole.

  We are a nation of laws. I'd rather not have law enforcement officials or judges choosing which laws to enforce and which not to.
  
  If we don't want people locked up for using illegal narcotics we simply need to change the law.
• Con_Alma

  ernest_t_bass;1542936 wrote:If the govt. wants to make money on drugs, then just start issuing hefty (DUI level) fines for being caught (in public, not your home) smoking pot. Don't lock 'em up, just fine them, and let them go about their business.

  Have the laws changed and maybe that will happen. It's really that simply.
• justincredible

  

  ohiobucks1;1542933 wrote:I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that our system is based on the belief that if enough people agree with you, then there will be no punishment for smoking. As of now, the tides are turning.
  
  Incest is wrong. I'm sure 99.5% of America agrees, and the laws (enforced or not) are there because society deems them necessary enough to not repeal.

  A system that allows something like this to go on for over 40 years is not a good system.
• Con_Alma

  justincredible;1542941 wrote:A system that allows something like this to go on for over 40 years is not a good system.

  
  That may be true also but having no system is worse. If the system is worthy of being changed then fight to change it.
• DeyDurkie5

  

  This thread is about incest. Please thread ban all involved on the drug talk.
• Belly35

  

  I Wear Pants;1542900 wrote:The problem is that the law has not reduced addiction or use and has increased the violence while at the same time spending massive sums of money. You cannot spin that as a success. It is a complete failure.

  Could the same be said for social welfare programs... Hasn't reduced poverty, stimulate achievement, lowered drop out rate, strengthen family unity but has developed an entitlement social class.
• gut

  It's 5% the children's fault
• I Wear Pants

  Belly35;1542951 wrote:Could the same be said for social welfare programs... Hasn't reduced poverty, stimulate achievement, lowered drop out rate, strengthen family unity but has developed an entitlement social class.

  
  For some programs probably, others are pretty effective.
  
  
  
  Worst that happens there though is we give some food or money to someone not literally starving. Worst that happens with the drug war is murder and locking people in a cage until they die.
• Mulva

  

  ohiobucks1;1542926 wrote:our system is based on the belief that our reps represent us.

  Congressional approval ratings strongly suggest this belief no longer exists.
• jmog

  justincredible;1542914 wrote:I just can't fathom how someone can view legislation that has violently murdered fellow citizens, locked millions in cages (to potentially be violently assaulted), because "drugs are bad" as a success. It absolutely boggles my mind.

  Sorry justin, but you've gone off the deep end here.
  
  If you want to argue that the war on drugs is a failure, you can obviously have some valid points.
  If you want to argue that certain drugs should be legal, you can obviously have some valid points.
  
  If you want to state that the war on drugs has "violently murdered fellow citizens, locked millions in cages to be assaulted, and in itself is racist", you have lost your mind and here is why.
  
  1. People know that drugs are illegal before they use/sell/manufacture them even if they don't believe they should be.
  2. So, if they try to attack the police coming after them and get killed, that's not murder.
  3. If they get arrested, it is their own fault. It also is absurd to call it racist as regardless of race people are getting arrested for drugs.