Ohio Chatter DEV

reclegend22

Phog Allen wrote:I agree with recs list. Coach K, Roy Williams, Coach Izzo, and Coach Self are a given in my opinion. It is hard to make a case against Coach Self not being at the top of the list. 6 straight conference championships in one of the best conferences in the nation! Are you kidding me?

He's definitely a top three coach. I think Izzo and Coach K are givens at one and two. The consistency they've shown is just tremendous and have both taken programs with great basketball histories and gone on to make them their own. Duke and Michigan State each enjoyed incredible basketball success before Coach K and Tom Izzo went to work for the respective schools. Duke with its three Final Fours in the '60s with legend Vic Bubas and Michigan State with its great '70s and '80s teams under Jud Heathcote. Duke was also home to coach Eddie Cameron, the father of the Atlantic Coast Conference, and Michigan State to Pete Newell. Coach K and Tom Izzo, however, have surpassed anything anyone before them ever could have dreamed of and have rewritten the basketball histories of their schools. Pretty amazing.

I wouldn't doubt that Bill Self achieves what Coach K and Izzo have. Obviously Phog Allen is a damn tough act to follow, but Self is in the process of building a Coach K-like dynasty in Lawrence. He's not only dominating his conference -- destroying it, actually -- but also the national landscape as well. If he were to cut the nets down again this season, he'd arguably be the most successful coach in KU history already. And that's pretty high praise. He may not have the careers wins of an Allen, but he'll be there soon enough. At the end of this season, Self WILL have over 200 victories, six Big 12 championships, three Elite Eights and a national title in sevens seasons as KU head coach. He MAY have over 200 wins, six Big 12 championships, four Elite Eights and two national titles. If he accomplishes that title this season, his first seven seasons in Lawrence will be among the most successful of any coach's start at any school in the history of the game. It's amazing what he's doing.

Laley23

Rec, I would agree that Calhoun and Boeheim are too inconsistent. That was kind of my point though, because Donovan has been as well YET their resumes STILL trump Donovan. Thus Billy boy just cannot be considered top 5 because Boeheim and Calhoun are above him and its tough to call them top 5.

Prescott

Do Boeheim and especially Calhoun get credit for building something from nothing?

Where is Mark Few?? He has been pretty consistent.

reclegend22

prescott wrote:Do Boeheim and especially Calhoun get credit for building something from nothing?

Certainly. But they just haven't been consistent enough, however great the programs they have built (and they have built EXTREMELY successful programs), to be listed as top five coaches. It's a shame, too, because aside from the four outlying NIT seasons over the past 15 years, Boeheim has the numbers that would rival just about anyone. The same could be said of Calhoun.

I struggled with placing Bo Ryan on this list over Rick Pitino, but Pitino has been walking a thin line recently with the NIT appearances. I'm convinced, as I've said before, that had Pitino stayed at Kentucky in the summer of '97, he'd be just as successful if not more so than K is now. With the speed and impressiveness in which Pitino was winning at Kentucky, Pitino looked to be on pace of becoming a top five coach all time. He was that great. Still is, but just not to that level any longer.

cview

Seriously guys, Ben Howland? Dude went to three straight Final Fours but got his ass murdered every time they got there, and the main reason they got there is because they never left the state of Cali until they won the regional. Four games in the home state and then an ass kicking once they left is how it went.

Also, if you're placing Howland above Donovan, you're dumb. They each have three Final Fours. Florida's record in those Final Fours is 5-1. UCLA is 1-3. Donovan has two National Championships to zero for Howland. Billy Donovan beat Howland for a title in 2006 and then mopped the floor with him at the Final Four in 2007. Also, the core of UCLA's Final Four teams weren't even recruited by Howland. To compare the two of them is stupid, no matter how NIT happy Billy D has been since those championships.

reclegend22

I was kind of scratching my head on the Howland thing as well, cview. I think he's in the discussion for that fifth spot, but the Donovan comparisons really make me re-think that position.

I think the top four are non-negotiable ... Coach K, Izzo, Self, Williams. The fifth, IMO, is between a select few. And they are as follows. Rick Pitino (what he did in the '90s with UK was so impressive that it leaves a lasting impression), Bo Ryan (if he were coaching at one of the big six, he'd win a national title), John Calipari (even though I'm no fan and all of his Final Fours are now vacated, he has proven he can win anywhere), Mark Few (not much deep NCAA success, but he does have three Sweet 16's and a top 10 team almost every single year; he's also never missed the NCAAs) and Thad Matta (he's proven he's an excellent coach and recruiter, and has to be named here since Few is).

There is really no one else worthy of mention, IMO. Unless I'm completely missing someone.

Edit: And I am. Jamie Dixon. This year's coaching job alone places Dixon in the discussion. He's a damn solid coach. And I think Sean Miller should be in the running as well. He's allowed some room for failure because of the rebuilding project he's facing at Zona, but Miller is as good a young coach as there is.

SportsAndLady

^^Are you serious? Jim Boeheim???

Laley23

I think Howland has to be in consideration for the fifth spot. 3 Final Fours in a row is 3 Final Fours in a row.

I think the thing is the top 4 are so obvious and then the 5th spot (as Rec said) is very much up for debate. I mean, Boeheim:
827-291
1 National Title
5 Time Big East Tourney Champion
8 Time Big Eat Regular Season Champion
32 Twenty win season (2 without 20) including 3 Thirty win seasons
3 Final Fours (3 Championship games with a win)

Thats a heck of a resume, and without the 4 relatively recent down years I think he is clear choice for the 5th spot...but thats why its fun to debate.

reclegend22

As I said, Boeheim has the career numbers that rank amongst the all-time greats. I agree with you, Laley.

However, sports, also as I've said, Boeheim's teams have played in FOUR NITs since 1997, and two in a row after the Cuse's 2003 title (in '06 and '07). That is, IMO, an automatic disqualification for top current coach in college basketball. Like Laley says, though, this is why debates are fun.

cview

Laley23 wrote: I think Howland has to be in consideration for the fifth spot. 3 Final Fours in a row is 3 Final Fours in a row.

I think the thing is the top 4 are so obvious and then the 5th spot (as Rec said) is very much up for debate. I mean, Boeheim:
827-291
1 National Title
5 Time Big East Tourney Champion
8 Time Big Eat Regular Season Champion
32 Twenty win season (2 without 20) including 3 Thirty win seasons
3 Final Fours (3 Championship games with a win)

Thats a heck of a resume, and without the 4 relatively recent down years I think he is clear choice for the 5th spot...but thats why its fun to debate.

I think Howland is a fine coach but if the top four are so obvious and non-negotiable as we all seem to agree they are, then there's absolutely no way you can argue Howland for the 5th spot. I hope Florida crashes and burns year after year because I hate them with a burning passion but even I can see that Billy Donovan trumps basically anything Howland's resume might have.

SportsAndLady

Thad Matta made the NIT after his NCAA RUnner Up, then squeeked into the NCAA Tourney and lost in the first round to Siena.

Bo Ryan has never made it to the Final Four.

Jamie Dixon has never made it to the Final Four.

Mark Few has never made it to the Elite Eight.

John Calipari was in the NIT 3 of his first 5 years at Memphis.

I guess my point is that every coach that is a candidate for that 5th spot isn't perfect. You can't NOT put Boeheim in there because of his NIT appearances because of the other 2 coaches you've listed, they've also had NIT appearances. And the other 3 coaches haven't won a Title or even been to the Final Four.

reclegend22

Good point, Sports. I guess I was giving Calipari the benefit of the doubt that he was building a program at Memphis that was awful for so many years. Not since Penny Hardaway played for Memphis State (same school) in the early '90s, had the program had any relevance before Calipari got there. So he needed some time to build. This is why I am giving Sean Miller a pass right now at Arizona.

Mark Few has not made a Final Four, true. And has never even coached in an Elite Eight. But he averages over 26 wins a year, has reached the NCAAs every single year, owns 4 Sweet 16 appearances, perennially has his team ranked in the top 10 despite arguably the toughest non-conference record year in and year out, has coached four first or second team All-Americans and three NBA first round draft selections and has earned nine straight conference titles (look no one on this site has been harder on the WCC over the years, and the infamous JJ/Morrison debates on here in '06 prove that; I hated on it all year long in defense of Redick and the ACC, but nine straight titles is nine straight titles). Those are impressive numbers, and reasons why Few is on this short list.

My Bo Ryan addition has more to do with the fact that Ryan has sustained such a high level of consistency (one of the most consistent in the country) during his tenure in Madison, which isn't exactly a basketball hotbed for recruits. But he's been able to get some stout players there, and that's a huge credit to him. He has nearly 220 wins, three Big Ten titles, three Sweet 16s, an Elite Eight and has never finished worse than 4th in the Big Ten in nine seasons at the helm as Wisconsin's head coach. That's consistency. That's an average of almost 25 wins per year. And he's made the NCAAs every single year. This is why I added him to my personal top five list.

Jamie Dixon is 187-52 in seven seasons (almost 27 wins per year), including three Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight last season. His worst season over that span is 20-9 and a trip to the NCAAs. He's never missed the Tournament. His coaching job this season (24-7, 13-5 T-2nd Big East) is his best yet. After losing First Team All-Americans Sam Young and DaJaun Blair as well as honorable mention All-American Lavance Fields last season, finishing second in the Big East this season (with so many GREAT teams at the top -- Syracuse, Nova, WVU) is really impressive. He's earned his right to be considered, even without the Final Four. And let's not forget, he was a last second shot away from one last March.

Matta is a difficult one. I'll give you that, sports. But he'd been at Ohio State a much shorter time when he went to the NIT in '08 than Boeheim did the four times he did starting in '97. Boeheim had already established the Syracuse program decades previous, and was already 10 years removed from his first national title game appearance in '97, when that NIT pattern began. In '08, Matta was in his fourth year at OSU. There is no excuse whatsoever for Boeheim, almost 25 years into his successful tenure as the Orangemen's head coach (arguably one of the most coveted positions now in the game), to play in four NITs in a span of 10 or 11 years, and two in consecutive years just three seasons removed from a national championship. Also, since we are excluding Roy's NIT (or even CBI) appearance this season, then it's probably only fair to give Matta one freebie as well. From all accounts, that seems to be an outlier, and his recruiting classes the next few years would seem to indicate that.

Bottom line, a proven track record of multiple NIT appearances in between major successes is not worthy in my book of elite, top five type status.

I just wrote way TOO much. Lol.

Footwedge

SportsAndLady wrote: The past few years I have gotten in some heated debates with Florida fans, and even a some neutral fans about my opinion on Billy Donovan.

The guy isn't that great of a coach.

When people throw his name out there in a top 5 coaches list, I want to jam needles in my eyeballs.

This year has basically solidified my argument. The SEC the last 3 years has been BAD, and he hasn't been able to get his team in the tourney the first 2 of those years (and bad losses in the NIT tourney, as well) and this year he has Florida on the bubble needing a few SEC tourney wins to feel a bit comfortable.

You take out his 2 national titles, which was basically because of a really good recruiting class, the guy has a Final Four and a bunch of missed NCAA tournament appearances.

Top 5 coach my ass.

Nobody really gives a flying shit what you think, greaseball.

SportsAndLady

Footwedge wrote:
SportsAndLady wrote: The past few years I have gotten in some heated debates with Florida fans, and even a some neutral fans about my opinion on Billy Donovan.

The guy isn't that great of a coach.

When people throw his name out there in a top 5 coaches list, I want to jam needles in my eyeballs.

This year has basically solidified my argument. The SEC the last 3 years has been BAD, and he hasn't been able to get his team in the tourney the first 2 of those years (and bad losses in the NIT tourney, as well) and this year he has Florida on the bubble needing a few SEC tourney wins to feel a bit comfortable.

You take out his 2 national titles, which was basically because of a really good recruiting class, the guy has a Final Four and a bunch of missed NCAA tournament appearances.

Top 5 coach my ass.
Nobody really gives a flying shit what you think, greaseball.

Lol says the guy who is hated by his own fans (aka, cavs fans), and doesn't appreciate bringing in a 20/10 guy for a draft pick. LOL

Oh and greaseball? WTF

Mr Pat

I'm curious S&L, where would you would rank Donovan?

wes_mantooth

Fellas....personal attacks?

SportsAndLady

Mr Pat wrote: I'm curious S&L, where would you would rank Donovan?

I donno, probably somewhere around 8 or 9.

self
k
roy williams
boeheim
calipari
bo ryan
Izzo
Howland
Pitino

cview

You're a good poster, but you're missing the boat if you think Howland > Donovan.

3 Final Fours to 3 Final Fours
2 Titles to 0
5-1 Final Four record vs 1-3 Final Four record
Head to head stompings at Final Four

But Donovan does coach at Florida, so I am obligated to hate him. I wish he didn't have that resume, but he does.

Laley23

cview wrote: You're a good poster, but you're missing the boat if you think Howland > Donovan.

3 Final Fours to 3 Final Fours
2 Titles to 0
5-1 Final Four record vs 1-3 Final Four record
Head to head stompings at Final Four

But Donovan does coach at Florida, so I am obligated to hate him. I wish he didn't have that resume, but he does.

I dont disagree that the postseason is better, but I think people are making the argument for how consistent you are year to year (to go along with postseason success). Howland hasnt ever had a down year until this season. He turned a crappy Northern Arizona team into tourney contenders and then turned Pitt into what it is now. He also took over at UCLA when they were pretty down and has been good there ever since.

Azubuike24

You can say that about Howland this year, but we will see how good his teams are in the next 2-3 years. I don't see him doing a lot better than Donovan. I'm also a big Howland hater too, so maybe I'm a bit skeptical.

Laley23

Azubuike24 wrote: You can say that about Howland this year, but we will see how good his teams are in the next 2-3 years. I don't see him doing a lot better than Donovan. I'm also a big Howland hater too, so maybe I'm a bit skeptical.

Yeah, im giving him a pass this year as I think every coach is entitled to a bad year. But if it stays the same, he wont even be close to the top 5.

SportsAndLady

cview wrote: You're a good poster, but you're missing the boat if you think Howland > Donovan.

3 Final Fours to 3 Final Fours
2 Titles to 0
5-1 Final Four record vs 1-3 Final Four record
Head to head stompings at Final Four

But Donovan does coach at Florida, so I am obligated to hate him. I wish he didn't have that resume, but he does.

I'm not saying Donovan's resume' is inferior to Howlands.

Just b/c you might have a slightly better resume', doesn't make you the better coach.

My whole argument about Donovan, is that he has over 75% of his accomplishments from one recruiting class. He made one final four outside of that recruiting class, and has missed the NCAA's on numerous occasions. Soon as he can prove he can do something w/ a team that isn't a top notch team, I will start giving him top 5 respects.

Azubuike24

I don't think you are giving Donovan enough credit for not only recruiting those players, but taking a class that wasn't even top 10 in the nation, winning 2 national titles with them and sending 4 of them to the NBA (with 3 being lottery picks).

If you were arguing for Donovan, this would be possibly one of the best coaching/development jobs we've seen in the modern era of the sport.

To put it mildly, you can't simply dismiss what he did with that class, even if in other years he has disappointed. If anything, his ego the last few years may have led him to believe he could do something similar with the players who followed the Oh-Fours.

SportsAndLady

I don't think i'm discrediting Donovan at all...Hell, I have him in my top 8 coaches in the country and that is based on his great job with that recruiting class.

I mean would you give a coach credit for making it to one final four in 10 years and missing the NCAAs on numerous occasions? No. But you add 2 titles in there with essentially the same players, and he jumps up to the top 8. That's giving him A LOT of credit, imo.

Azubuike24

I was always a big Donovan hater prior to the 04's, and gave him his props after them. However, I'd say many wouldn't put him in their top 5 coaches right now, and that's not to say he isn't a good coach. It also depends on what we are arguing. Top 5 CURRENT coaches, or top 5 RESUMES of coaches.

Jim Calhoun, Coach K and Billy Donovan all have top 6 resumes (along with probably Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim and Tom Izzo would be the current top 6), but only Izzo and Williams would I still include in my CURRENT top 5, and probably Boeheim.

Bottom line, the top 5 coaches argument is always heavily influenced by "what have you done for me lately" and right now, Donovan is on the bottom end of that. However, if you just start taking accomplishments into consideration, and also consider tenure, Donovan is at the top. Two titles and three Final Fours, that is only currently surpassed by Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun and Coach K. That alone puts Donovan in the discussion.

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Can everyone finally admit I was right all along about Billy Donovan?