Evan Turner returning next year?

• bulldog8

  It was confusing to me too. I tried to give some reasoning on previous OSU threads as to why they should be more involved, but I was lectured numerous times of why the starting 5 should play the entire game and why Matta does what he does. I am able to see both sides of this situation in that there is a definite dropoff in talent from our starters to our bench players. However, my only argument was that with the ability of our guards, rotating either Hill or Simmons in with any combination of our 4 best guards will really not make the Bucks that much less competitive than they are now. Getting a few more guys involved would help limit the minutes that the starters are playing per game and help to assure that OSU will be better rested come tournament time. My nemesis, Big Gain, on the other hand, cannot see the other side of the argument and audaciously lectures that what Matta does is the best for this team. My only problem is that Big Gain is unable to see both sides of the argument. I don't care which side you support, but your inability to acknowledge another side of the situation baffles me. I can see why you think Matta needs to rely on our starting 5 because they are obviously better than anyone on the bench. However, to say that Hill and Simmons logging 10 minutes a game would greatly affect their regular season success is a bit ludicrous.
• bulldog8

  Big Gain wrote:

  bulldog8 wrote: And the shit continues to spew from your mouth.

  NO.....the unintelligent word "shit" came from your ugly mouth.
  
  Is that all you have to counter the facts presented?
  You have nothing to support the opinion you are entitled to have?
  
  You failed to answer any of the questions posed.

  There's no point in addressing any of the questions you pose because you are like talking to a rock. Your response never changes and you hold your own opinion greater than everyone else's. Why should I waste my time addressing your questions when you will just come back to tell me that i'm wrong and that Matta knows way more than I do. I get your point man - you're worried about a serious dropoff in talent on our bench. You are right in that regard. However, if you mean to tell me that PJ Hill playing with Turner, Buford, Lighty, and Lauderdale is that much of a liability that it will sacrifice wins, then Hill shouldn't be a scholarship basketball player at OSU. We've seen him in the past and he has played well at times and poor at others. Simmons has shown the ability to score and I think that both could be equally effective with the right personnel around them. Sorry, but that is my opinion. I understand your opinion, but never once have you said that you understand where I am coming from - it proves that you are just too stubborn to possibly consider what someone else has to say.
• Big Gain

  Automatik wrote: I just don't understand how they see significant time last year and parts of this year and now the major dropoff? Has Matta given up on them? Or does he not care to give others a rest? Its confusing to me.

  Last year Bufford was a Freshman and Lighty missed most of the season.
  
  Matta cares to do what he thinks is required to give his TEAM the best shot at winning a Big Ten Title. As a member of a TEAM, whether you played the most minutes or the fewest minutes, wouldn't you want your coach do all he could to get you a ring?
• Tiger2003

  

  Are we really trying to 2nd guess Matta if he is playing his players to much? Really winning 7 of there last 8 and now only a 1/2 game back out of of the Big Ten lead...I really don't see any fatigue in any of there legs....I am fine with the 6 man lineup....They get there breaks on Timeouts....
  
  Hill is probably the Worst OSU guard I have ever watched play....Fuss was even better...and Simmons is 5-23.....he can't sit on the bench the rest of the time he is at OSU...
  
  Madsen is playing very well when he comes in...He loves that baseline shot, and is pretty much automatic from there....
• Big Gain

  bulldog8 wrote:

  Big Gain wrote:

  bulldog8 wrote: And the shit continues to spew from your mouth.

  NO.....the unintelligent word "shit" came from your ugly mouth.
  
  Is that all you have to counter the facts presented?
  You have nothing to support the opinion you are entitled to have?
  
  You failed to answer any of the questions posed.

  There's no point in addressing any of the questions you pose because you are like talking to a rock. Your response never changes and you hold your own opinion greater than everyone else's. Why should I waste my time addressing your questions when you will just come back to tell me that i'm wrong and that Matta knows way more than I do. I get your point man - you're worried about a serious dropoff in talent on our bench. You are right in that regard. However, if you mean to tell me that PJ Hill playing with Turner, Buford, Lighty, and Lauderdale is that much of a liability that it will sacrifice wins, then Hill shouldn't be a scholarship basketball player at OSU. We've seen him in the past and he has played well at times and poor at others. Simmons has shown the ability to score and I think that both could be equally effective with the right personnel around them. Sorry, but that is my opinion. I understand your opinion, but never once have you said that you understand where I am coming from - it proves that you are just too stubborn to possibly consider what someone else has to say.

  Please do not make up crap. My response never changes?? Prove it. My last post is the same as my previous posst? That's silly, look at it again. Show us where I say my opinion is the greatest. Prove it. Where in my last post did I say you were wrong? Prove it. So, you're telling us you are superior because you don't think your opinions are equal to or better than others? I can't help that I agree with Matta and you don't, that's just my opinion. Surely one is allowed to have an opinion, even when it agrees with a coach who has won at least 20 games every year at three different Div1 schools.
  
  Hill was plucked from the JC ranks and given a scholarship when Conley unexpected left Ohio State after one year, leaving OSU with no one to back up Butler at PG. That year Turner was an incoming Freshman.
  
  I will say this AGAIN, as I did in my previous post and many times in the past. Not only do YOU have a right to your opinion, but EVERYONE has a right to their opinion. Obviously, there will always be differing opinions. Certainly everyone believes in their opinion, or why have an opinion? I could be convinced to "understand where your opinion was coming from", if you did as I did above. Spend hours searching for facts, doing the math to convert to data, present data and ask pertinent questions. None of which were disproved or answered. It will take more than unsubstantiated opinions to convince me Matta is purposely causing his players "legs to fall off".
  
  My previous post was proffered to ask questions and present data concerning the question at hand. Coaches keep track of playing time. It appears the Big Four has sat out significant minutes over the course of the season. Matta obviously believes the Big Four have sat out enough minutes to keep "their legs from falling off".
  
  A few nights ago this exact question was debated on BTN by Jimmy Jackson, another ex-player and a coach. They all agreed, at this time of year coaches are "shortening their benches" in the stretch run when in contention for a Conference Title and to improve Tournament Seeding. BTW, Purdue's coach "shortened his bench" considerably tonight in their win over MSU.
  
  Tonight on ESPN discussing the Big Ten race, Jay Bilas said Michigan State, when healthy, had the best TEAM in the Big Ten and Ohio State had the best Starting Five in the Big Ten,
  referring to Ohio States weak bench. To give Ohio State the best shot at winning the Big Ten Title Matta must play the Big Four as much as he thinks necessary and go to his bench as little as possible, to win games.
  
  In this case info from "experts".
• thedynasty1998

  

  Please don't quote Big Gain's posts, he brings nothing but insults and arrogance to any discussion.
  
  Over the past weekend and couple days I've been hearing more and more people talking about OSU on the National scene, and the consensus seems to be that it's hard to make a run without using your bench whatsoever. The two that come to mind are Bilas last night and Hubert Davis this weekend.
  
  I understand Matta's predicament in that there is a huge dropoff going to the bench. But as has been discussed, I think there are ways to work guys in and use timeouts a little more effectively.
  
  But I've said before I think this OSU team is overachieving based on Turner's play and no matter how the season plays out, you have to be happy with the level of play of this team.
• bulldog8

  Big Gain....I'm sorry but I dont have time to research all the questions you have presented. I provided my opinion based on how things appear to me in watching OSU's games. Never once did I say that Matta is intentionally only playing 5 guys to try to have their "legs fall off". I did, however, say that by only playing 5 guys (which Matta sometimes has to do because of how poor the bench is) could run this team into the ground come March. I could look up numbers for you all day if you want, but as of right now, I can guarantee that nothing will support my opinion of tiring this team out. OSU continues to win games and continues to put up more points in the second half than the first half of each game. Granted, this could also be a result of halftime adjustments, guys getting hot/cold, and tempo of the game picking up. However, if you notice in all of my posts, I indicate that this could hurt "come March". I can't provide any data until we see how this team responds down the stretch when the minutes really begin to pile up and the amount of rest in between games in the tournament becomes less and less. I totally agree that things are going great now and if it's not broke, don't fix it. My only fear is that when you only rely on 5 guys, if one gets in foul trouble, or fatigue sets in during the tournament, you don't even have someone with experience to step in and log some efficient minutes. Will this matter in the case of this year's OSU team? Who knows, only time will tell.
  
  I'm not saying that I think Hill and Simmons are talented enough that they have earned the chance to play significant minutes every game. They are apparently worse than our starting five. My only gripe is to just get them involved slightly more to prepare for every possible situation that might arise come tournament time. You never know when someone will get hurt or in foul trouble and someone will have to be called upon. So would you rather take the chance and deal with it when the time comes or be prepared for that situation with someone who has had some experience with this year's team and has some chemistry with the starting 5? I know that you think this would jeopardize our regular season and sacrifice some of the wins this team has already earned. However, in my honest opinion, I just don't see OSU having a worse record if Hill or Simmons is flanked by Turner, Lighty, Buford (or Diebler) and Lauderdale. I think both could contribute effectively with that crop of talent around them.
  
  I can't provide any data to support this though because both have rode the pine the ENTIRE season. I don't think it is possible to evaluate either Hill or Simmons in this regard because they have not seen a significant enough amount of minutes. The only game Hill saw significant time was against a 12-11 Eastern Michigan team (when Turner injured his back) and he played 33 minutes, went 6-8 from the field, 3-4 on three point attempts, had 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, one foul, and 18 points. Simmons also saw 23 minutes that game, went 5-7 from the field, 3-5 on three point attempts, had 1 rebound, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 foul, and 17 points. Granted this was against a team that was not the caliber of big 10 talent, but this was one of few games where the two actually logged some substantial minutes. If these 2 saw more time throughout the regular season, maybe we would have a better idea of whether they should be out there or not. Personally, I have not seen enough games or games that they have been in, to effectively say whether or not I think they should be more involved. It's not my decision though and i'll hope that fatigue doesn't bite this team in the ass come March. I can tell you one thing that's for certain though, I will not be on here saying I was right if OSU looks dead in the tournament. Although I bring up the debate of getting more guys involved, I hope to see the Bucks make a nice run in the tourney and hope they prove me wrong in sticking with their 5 big guns.
• rydawg5

  bulldog8 wrote: Big Gain....I'm sorry but I dont have time to research all the questions you have presented. I provided my opinion based on how things appear to me in watching OSU's games. Never once did I say that Matta is intentionally only playing 5 guys to try to have their "legs fall off".
  
  I did, however, say that by only playing 5 guys (which Matta sometimes has to do because of how poor the bench is) could run this team into the ground come March.
  
  I could look up numbers for you all day if you want, but as of right now, I can guarantee that nothing will support my opinion of tiring this team out. OSU continues to win games and continues to put up more points in the second half than the first half of each game.
  
  Granted, this could also be a result of halftime adjustments, guys getting hot/cold, and tempo of the game picking up. However, if you notice in all of my posts, I indicate that this could hurt "come March".
  
  I can't provide any data until we see how this team responds down the stretch when the minutes really begin to pile up and the amount of rest in between games in the tournament becomes less and less.
  
  I totally agree that things are going great now and if it's not broke, don't fix it. My only fear is that when you only rely on 5 guys, if one gets in foul trouble, or fatigue sets in during the tournament, you don't even have someone with experience to step in and log some efficient minutes.
  
  Will this matter in the case of this year's OSU team? Who knows, only time will tell. I'm not saying that I think Hill and Simmons are talented enough that they have earned the chance to play significant minutes every game. They are apparently worse than our starting five.
  
  My only gripe is to just get them involved slightly more to prepare for every possible situation that might arise come tournament time. You never know when someone will get hurt or in foul trouble and someone will have to be called upon.
  
  So would you rather take the chance and deal with it when the time comes or be prepared for that situation with someone who has had some experience with this year's team and has some chemistry with the starting 5?
  
  I know that you think this would jeopardize our regular season and sacrifice some of the wins this team has already earned. However, in my honest opinion, I just don't see OSU having a worse record if Hill or Simmons is flanked by Turner, Lighty, Buford (or Diebler) and Lauderdale. I think both could contribute effectively with that crop of talent around them.
  
  I can't provide any data to support this though because both have rode the pine the ENTIRE season. I don't think it is possible to evaluate either Hill or Simmons in this regard because they have not seen a significant enough amount of minutes.
  
  The only game Hill saw significant time was against a 12-11 Eastern Michigan team (when Turner injured his back) and he played 33 minutes, went 6-8 from the field, 3-4 on three point attempts, had 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, one foul, and 18 points.
  
  Simmons also saw 23 minutes that game, went 5-7 from the field, 3-5 on three point attempts, had 1 rebound, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 foul, and 17 points. Granted this was against a team that was not the caliber of big 10 talent, but this was one of few games where the two actually logged some substantial minutes.
  
  If these 2 saw more time throughout the regular season, maybe we would have a better idea of whether they should be out there or not.
  
  Personally, I have not seen enough games or games that they have been in, to effectively say whether or not I think they should be more involved.
  
  It's not my decision though and i'll hope that fatigue doesn't bite this team in the ass come March.
  
  I can tell you one thing that's for certain though, I will not be on here saying I was right if OSU looks dead in the tournament. Although I bring up the debate of getting more guys involved, I hope to see the Bucks make a nice run in the tourney and hope they prove me wrong in sticking with their 5 big guns.

  Fixed the biggest paragraph ever written.
• bulldog8

  ^^^Just trying to give my buddy a headache
• Jropp03

  I love the buckeyes just as much, if not more than anyone. PJ Hill is not good. He is ok defensively and is a hustler, but he is not good at running a team which is the only position on the floor he can play because of his size. Simmons to me disrupts all the flow in the game. He takes horrible shots and forces it every time he is in. PJ and Simmons were both transfers because we lost Conley Jr wayyy earlier than Matta thought, thats why we aren't deep at that position.
• thedynasty1998

  

  Jropp03 wrote: I love the buckeyes just as much, if not more than anyone. PJ Hill is not good. He is ok defensively and is a hustler, but he is not good at running a team which is the only position on the floor he can play because of his size. Simmons to me disrupts all the flow in the game. He takes horrible shots and forces it every time he is in. PJ and Simmons were both transfers because we lost Conley Jr wayyy earlier than Matta thought, thats why we aren't deep at that position.

  I'm not disagreeing with you on Hills abilities, but why does he have to play PG? Why can't he spell Diebler and let Turner remain at the point?
• centralbucksfan

  I think we all saw tonite WHY Hill hasn't been playing. I luv PJ as much as the next guy. YOu can never question his effort. But effort at this level doesn't go very far. Talent does. Hill just isn't that talented, and really hasn't gotten any better. He is 5'10"...cant' shoot...which is WHY Matta doesn't put him in for Diebler. Only time Hill is going to see the floor is if Turner gets in foul trouble. Luckily tonite, it was only IU we went against.
  
  Also, if you follow OSU bball, Matta is running practice about an hour and 15 min, and the starters are getting very little rep to keep they fresh. Like it or not, agree with it or not....Matta is either going to live or die with 6 players. And I happen to think thats his only choice. A bench would be great, if there was one. A few minutes here and there is NOT going to make any difference. Get over it.
  A couple of you have two choices, keep whinning about it...or accept it. Personally, I'd take the later option. Beating a dead horse gets you nowhere.
• thedynasty1998

  

  I didn't get to see any of the game tonight, but it seems like Hill really struggled. Maybe Matta just really has absolutely no confidence in his bench because they are worse than anyone knows.
• Big Gain

  rydawg5 wrote:

  bulldog8 wrote:
  Big Gain....I'm sorry but I dont have time to research all the questions you have presented. I provided my opinion based on how things appear to me in watching OSU's games. Never once did I say that Matta is intentionally only playing 5 guys to try to have their "legs fall off".
  
  I did, however, say that by only playing 5 guys (which Matta sometimes has to do because of how poor the bench is) could run this team into the ground come March.
  
  
  My only gripe is to just get them involved slightly more to prepare for every possible situation that might arise come tournament time. You never know when someone will get hurt or in foul trouble and someone will have to be called upon.
  
  So would you rather take the chance and deal with it when the time comes or be prepared for that situation with someone who has had some experience with this year's team and has some chemistry with the starting 5?
  
  I know that you think this would jeopardize our regular season and sacrifice some of the wins this team has already earned. However, in my honest opinion, I just don't see OSU having a worse record if Hill or Simmons is flanked by Turner, Lighty, Buford (or Diebler) and Lauderdale. I think both could contribute effectively with that crop of talent around them.
  
  I can't provide any data to support this though because both have rode the pine the ENTIRE season. I don't think it is possible to evaluate either Hill or Simmons in this regard because they have not seen a significant enough amount of minutes.
  
  The only game Hill saw significant time was against a 12-11 Eastern Michigan team (when Turner injured his back) and he played 33 minutes, went 6-8 from the field, 3-4 on three point attempts, had 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, one foul, and 18 points.
  
  Simmons also saw 23 minutes that game, went 5-7 from the field, 3-5 on three point attempts, had 1 rebound, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 1 foul, and 17 points. Granted this was against a team that was not the caliber of big 10 talent, but this was one of few games where the two actually logged some substantial minutes.
  
  If these 2 saw more time throughout the regular season, maybe we would have a better idea of whether they should be out there or not.
  
  Personally, I have not seen enough games or games that they have been in, to effectively say whether or not I think they should be more involved.
  
  I hope to see the Bucks make a nice run in the tourney and hope they prove me wrong in sticking with their 5 big guns.

  Fixed the biggest paragraph ever written.

  At the very beginning of this post you said the following, "Never once did I say Matta is intentionally only playing 5 guys to try to have their 'legs fall off' ". First of all, you are so unknowledgeable you don't even know that Matta ALWAYS plays at least SIX players in EVERY GAME. Madsen ALWAYS splits time with Lauderdale. Secondly, you lied again. These are your EXACT words from your post of 2/9 at 9:20pm on this thread. "Matta is doing what's best for the team by playing these guys until their legs fall off." Your credibility has hit a new low.
  
  Your "gripe" was on center stage tonight, luckily it was Indiana. Hill and Simmons get reps in practice to prepare them for what happened tonight, foul trouble. Turner with 2 fouls after 3 minutes. Hill comes in and what does he do? 1) Takes it upon himself to press Indiana's PG full court, gets his jock faked out and his man goes the length off the court for a layup. 2) Throws a pass that careens off the backboard. 3) Takes a 3-pointer that doesn't even hit the rim. He finally remembers what his job is, come in and don't screw up. 4) However, he screws up even more and gets called for 3 fouls in 8 minutes and now Ohio State's 3rd string PG has to come in during the first half. Simmons comes in does what he's supposed to, pass the ball, don't gamble on defense, don't make dumb fouls, don't make turnovers and don't take bad shots. Because Hill did everything he wasn't supposed to do in the first half, at the end of the game Simmons got more minutes than Hill.
  
  Hill and Simmons HAVE NOT "rode the pine the entire SEASON". As I pointed out, each of the Big Four has individually NOT played in 10%, 12%, 19% and 35% of the available minutes this year. Who do you supposed played the vast majority of those minutes? Looking at those minutes not played by the Big Four, how can Matta be "running them into the ground"?
  
  You still don't get it. It's not that I think more playing time for Hill and Simmons could jeopardize wins. THAT'S WHAT MATTA THINKS, I just agree. You say, "If these 2(Hill and Simmons) saw more playing time throughout the year, maybe we would have a better idea of whether they should be out there or not." LOL, Hilarious!!! Why in the hell should Matta have played Hill and Simmons more, just so "we" could become more knowledgeable about their abilities?????
  
  FINALLY an admission! I have seen every game they have played in and MUCH MUCH more importantly Matta has seen every minute of every practice they have participated in. Matta has infinitely more knowledge concerning Hill and Simmons abilities than anyone. I agree with the expert.
• bulldog8

  You misinterpreted the point I was trying to convey. But you know what, you are ABSOLUTELY right and i'm ABSOLUTELY wrong. I get your point in all your posts. You don't get my point in any of my posts. I'm doing what one of us should have done a long time ago and quit beating a dead horse because you obviously won't budge on your opinion. Regardless of our disagreement, i'll man up and just admit i'm wrong. PJ Hill and Simmons both proved tonight that they are not capable of running with the big boys. Sure OSU still won by 17, but these guys evidently cannot be trusted in big games. I suppose they could log some minutes against some of the lower tier teams in the big 10, but Matta has a definite reason why he sticks with the top 5.
• Laley23

  

  thedynasty1998 wrote: I didn't get to see any of the game tonight, but it seems like Hill really struggled. Maybe Matta just really has absolutely no confidence in his bench because they are worse than anyone knows.

  Hill was beyond bad, although he had a nice lay-up (but that was due to retarded defense from Jeremiah Rivers).
  
  He had an airball off a wide open 3 that went over the rim and somehow landed in Madsens lap and a pass to Buford that hit the backboard/rim and again landed in Madsens lap. Not to mention he picked up 3 fouls (two of which were just lazy defense, and I dont remember the 3rd).