Who are the #1 and #2 seeds as of today?
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reclegend22
Not only does Cincy have a better than average guard in Sean Kilpatrick, it has arguably the best guard in the country. Sean Kilpatrick is having a monster year. Averages of 20.5 points, 4.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists and 1.4 steals on the season. He's also scoring at 25.1 points per clip over the past six, including games against Louisville, UConn and SMU. -
Ironman92
Lunardi's latest this afternoon has
West 1. Zona, 2. Creighton, 3. Virginia
South 1. Florida, 2.Duke, 3.Mich St
East 1. Syracuse, 2.Wisconsin, 3.Nova
Mid West 1. Wich St, 2. Kansas, 3. Michigan -
Laley23
SDSU had a shot, especially with their win @ Kansas. Really blew it last night.
Creighton in a dogfight at home with Seton Hall. Cannot afford a lose here. -
reclegend22
Bo Ryan is back baby!Ironman92;1583684 wrote:Lunardi's latest this afternoon has
West 1. Zona, 2. Creighton, 3. Virginia
South 1. Florida, 2.Duke, 3.Mich St
East 1. Syracuse, 2.Wisconsin, 3.Nova
Mid West 1. Wich St, 2. Kansas, 3. Michigan -
PrescottBo will fail in the tournament, again.
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reclegend22
Wisconsin has won five games in a row, including wins over Michigan State, at Michigan and at Iowa. I'm not sure the Badgers have really upped their defensive play in any significant measure, though they are certainly performing better in that area of late, but they are shooting and scoring the ball as well as they have all year. Frank Kaminsky and Sam Dekker are playing lights out right now offensively.
If the Badgers shoot well in the tournament, there's no reason that this team, with the scoring weapons it has, can't string together a few victories and make a run to the Final Four. While history says they won't, Bo Ryan has never had a team this gifted on offense. -
PrescottIt is difficult to erase the memory of Wisky's pitiful offensive effort versus Mississippi last year.
I would agree that IF Wisky shoots well in the tournament they could advance to the Final Four. That criteria also applies to about 25 other teams. -
lhslep134
Some coaches are great at getting their kids ready to play for a tournament game. Bo Ryan is apparently not one of them. Choke job after choke job make it obvious. I don't see anything that convinces me this year will be different, even if this team has to potential to be a Final Four team.
He could always surprise though -
centralbucksfan
Personally think this is a crock of crap. YOu get your team ready to play for the tourny during the season. Yes, there are some minor things you can do here and there come tourny time. But nothing thats going to be earth shattering. You either have the horses or you don't. Some get lucky by bracket placement, teams in bracket, teams getting upset in front of them, etc, etc. But the whole some coaches get their teams ready a certain way better than others...too much talk about that and its overblown IMO. There are many a great coach who have no won titles. And some have won multiple. Great coaches at smaller schools who will never win because of where they are at. Bo Ryan has put some very good teams on the floor, no question. He gets the most out of what he has. And over the course of a LONG season, and in conference play, where multiple games make a difference, he has done very well, In NCAA, you don't have that luxury. And forwhatever reason, Wisky hasn't done all that well. Probably because they just haven't been talented enough when it comes right down to it.lhslep134;1583904 wrote:Some coaches are great at getting their kids ready to play for a tournament game. -
reclegend22
Wisconsin is a much more versatile and potent team offensively this year. Last year is irrelevant.prescott wrote:It is difficult to erase the memory of Wisky's pitiful offensive effort versus Mississippi last year.
Bill Self fit into that same box for while, then he made his first Final Four and erased that perception. The reason for Ryan's moderate NCAA success isn't IMO an inability to get his kids ready for the tournament, whatever that means. Based on his overall success as a head coach, I just can't buy into that notion at all. The more likely factor is that Ryan doesn't have the quality of talent year in and year out to annually compete deep into March like the coaches of the perennial Final Four programs (K, Izzo, Williams, Calipari, etc.) do.lhslep134;1583904 wrote:Some coaches are great at getting their kids ready to play for a tournament game. Bo Ryan is apparently not one of them. Choke job after choke job make it obvious. I don't see anything that convinces me this year will be different, even if this team has to potential to be a Final Four team.
He could always surprise though
Bo Ryan, for what it's worth, has taken Wisconsin to five Sweet 16s and all the way to the Elite Eight in 2005, coming up just two baskets shy of the Final Four against eventual national champion North Carolina. If Wisconsin scores just a few more points and wins that game, we are talking about Bo Ryan in an entirely different manner as a Final Four coach. I choose not to let that one game define an otherwise brilliant career. -
reclegend22
Bingo. Given the resources at his disposal, Bo Ryan has done a magnificent job of building a basketball power and recruiting kids to what amounts to an inuit village.centralbucksfan;1583949 wrote:Personally think this is a crock of crap. YOu get your team ready to play for the tourny during the season. Yes, there are some minor things you can do here and there come tourny time. But nothing thats going to be earth shattering. You either have the horses or you don't. Some get lucky by bracket placement, teams in bracket, teams getting upset in front of them, etc, etc. But the whole some coaches get their teams ready a certain way better than others...too much talk about that and its overblown IMO. There are many a great coach who have no won titles. And some have won multiple. Great coaches at smaller schools who will never win because of where they are at. Bo Ryan has put some very good teams on the floor, no question. He gets the most out of what he has. And over the course of a LONG season, and in conference play, where multiple games make a difference, he has done very well, In NCAA, you don't have that luxury. And forwhatever reason, Wisky hasn't done all that well. Probably because they just haven't been talented enough when it comes right down to it.
While his style of play caters very well to the Big Ten, as CBF stated, Ryan has clearly had a difficult time attracting the type of athletes that are often necessary to reach Final Fours and win national titles. -
SportsAndLady
Kansas tied up with Oklahoma in AFH.
Oklahoma is really good. Cam Clark can light it up, and buddy hield is a great sidekick. Then you have that crack baby tattooed white kid who seems to pull down 15 boards a game. They'll be a tough out in march. One of my sleepers to make a final four run.
Kansas on the other hand is in serious danger of dropping out of a top seed. Could fall to a 4 seed if they don't watch out. -
Ironman92
No way they fall below a 3 and unlikely below a 2.SportsAndLady;1584186 wrote:Kansas tied up with Oklahoma in AFH.
Oklahoma is really good. Cam Clark can light it up, and buddy hield is a great sidekick. Then you have that crack baby tattooed white kid who seems to pull down 15 boards a game. They'll be a tough out in march. One of my sleepers to make a final four run.
Kansas on the other hand is in serious danger of dropping out of a top seed. Could fall to a 4 seed if they don't watch out. -
Laley23
Double standard. If they almost pulled an upset vs UNC, you cant talk about his S16s like they are amazing. How many time has he underachieved in ONLY getting to the S16? I remember looking this up, and its a lot. Even in his E8 run, I think he faced nothing more then a 10 seed.reclegend22;1584151 wrote: Bo Ryan, for what it's worth, has taken Wisconsin to five Sweet 16s and all the way to the Elite Eight in 2005, coming up just two baskets shy of the Final Four against eventual national champion North Carolina. If Wisconsin scores just a few more points and wins that game, we are talking about Bo Ryan in an entirely different manner as a Final Four coach. I choose not to let that one game define an otherwise brilliant career.
Bo is a great coach, its obvious. What is also obvious is that his teams fall on their face year in year out in March. To say he doesnt have the athletes to make deeper runs is just as ludicrous as any other argument you want to debunk on our side. How are they good enough to win B10 titles?? Have amazing regular season records??? I agree he doesnt get great athletes/5* talent, but that should ALSO mean he doesnt get great results. But he does. There is no way that is the reason he has little success in March. -
SportsAndLady
With a loss at home to Oklahoma they could have. But that obviously didn't happen.Ironman92;1584196 wrote:No way they fall below a 3 and unlikely below a 2. -
reclegend22
Laley23 wrote:Double standard. If they almost pulled an upset vs UNC, you cant talk about his S16s like they are amazing.
You misinterpreted me then, because the only double standard is the one you are trying to create.
Ryan has been to five Sweet 16s and in 2005 advanced to the Elite Eight, falling one game short of a Final Four. My comment about choosing not to let that "one game" define Ryan's otherwise brilliant career could also be applied to any of the four Sweet 16 games that he lost. Ultimately, because there is so much luck that often goes into winning any game, there isn’t much difference between losing in the Sweet 16 versus losing in the Elite Eight or losing in the Elite Eight versus losing in the first game of the Final Four. A ball bounces differently here or there in one or two of those games and instead Ryan has multiple Elite Eight appearances or a Final Four and an entirely different legacy as a coach. I refuse to place that much significance on the outcome of a single game at that stage of the tournament.
Laley23 wrote:Bo is a great coach, its obvious. What is also obvious is that his teams fall on their face year in year out in March. To say he doesnt have the athletes to make deeper runs is just as ludicrous as any other argument you want to debunk on our side.
Ryan’s rosters year to year are largely devoid of the kinds of athletes and 5-star talent enjoyed by most Elite Eight and Final Four participants (not all, of course, but most. Teams like George Mason, VCU and Butler are obvious exceptions). To suggest that Ryan’s tournament success in the Sweet 16 and beyond wouldn’t be greater with a roster filled with better athletes and copious 5-star talent is what is ludicrous.
Laley23 wrote:How are they good enough to win B10 titles?? Have amazing regular season records??? I agree he doesnt get great athletes/5* talent, but that should ALSO mean he doesnt get great results. But he does. There is no way that is the reason he has little success in March.
First of all, let’s stop acting like Bo Ryan has never advanced past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament. He’s led Wisconsin to five regional semifinal appearances and one Elite Eight. He’s had reasonable success. The only thing missing from his resume is a Final Four. But winning in conference play is a different animal entirely than winning in the tournament. In addition to talent, a lot of luck is involved in a single-elimination tournament whereupon success is largely dependent on match-ups and the performance of fickle 19 and 20-year old college kids. Despite having vastly superior talent to Bo Ryan most years, guys like Bill Self, Billy Donovan, Rick Pitino and even Coach K have experienced their fair share of early-round failure. More times than not, however, their superior talent wins out in March and propels them deep into the tournament. Ryan, meanwhile, annually plays with essentially the same low-key deck of cards.
Secondly, Wisconsin’s characteristic style of play under Ryan -- plodding, low-scoring, half-court, defensive-minded basketball -- has translated very well to the overall style of the Big Ten as a whole. There's also obviously a familiarity factor between conference teams and Ryan has clearly demonstrated to own a head-to-head advantage against certain Big Ten coaches. In a nutshell, Ryan has perfected playing the Big Ten’s particular brand of basketball and done an excellent job of recruiting the types of kids who excel at that style of play.
Laley23 wrote:How many time has he underachieved in ONLY getting to the S16? I remember looking this up, and its a lot. Even in his E8 run, I think he faced nothing more then a 10 seed.
Ryan has won multiple games in the NCAA Tournament five times in 12 overall appearances (so he makes the Sweet 16 almost 50% of the time). But just as there have been years wherein Wisconsin probably should have advanced farther, there probably also have been years that Wisconsin has simply been overseeded (perhaps the result of an overhyped Big Ten), creating the illusion of underachievement.
The Big Ten, as a body of work, has only two national titles to its name in the last 25+ years. There are three Big Ten teams who have enjoyed Final Four-level NCAA success over the past couple of decades (Michigan State, Ohio State and Michigan) and it is no coincidence that those teams are able to recruit and field the types of athletic and 5-star players that Wisconsin cannot. This in turn gives those teams a greater chance of success outside of Big Ten play. -
centralbucksfan
Ryan also won 3 DivIII titles in his career as well. People can downplay that all they want, but its all relative at each level. He has only been at a major university, Wisconsin, what, 12yrs? Who knows how long he will continue as he is up there in age somewhat. But look at other coaches like K and Jim Boeheim and see how long it took them to win an NCAA.reclegend22;1584378 wrote:
You misinterpreted me then, because the only double standard is the one you are trying to create.
Ryan has been to five Sweet 16s and in 2005 advanced to the Elite Eight, falling one game short of a Final Four. My comment about choosing not to let that "one game" define Ryan's otherwise brilliant career could also be applied to any of the four Sweet 16 games that he lost. Ultimately, because there is so much luck that often goes into winning any game, there isn’t much difference between losing in the Sweet 16 versus losing in the Elite Eight or losing in the Elite Eight versus losing in the first game of the Final Four. A ball bounces differently here or there in one or two of those games and instead Ryan has multiple Elite Eight appearances or a Final Four and an entirely different legacy as a coach. I refuse to place that much significance on the outcome of a single game at that stage of the tournament.
Ryan’s rosters year to year are largely devoid of the kinds of athletes and 5-star talent enjoyed by most Elite Eight and Final Four participants (not all, of course, but most. Teams like George Mason, VCU and Butler are obvious exceptions). To suggest that Ryan’s tournament success in the Sweet 16 and beyond wouldn’t be greater with a roster filled with better athletes and copious 5-star talent is what is ludicrous.
First of all, let’s stop acting like Bo Ryan has never advanced past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament. He’s led Wisconsin to five regional semifinal appearances and one Elite Eight. He’s had reasonable success. The only thing missing from his resume is a Final Four. But winning in conference play is a different animal entirely than winning in the tournament. In addition to talent, a lot of luck is involved in a single-elimination tournament whereupon success is largely dependent on match-ups and the performance of fickle 19 and 20-year old college kids. Despite having vastly superior talent to Bo Ryan most years, guys like Bill Self, Billy Donovan, Rick Pitino and even Coach K have experienced their fair share of early-round failure. More times than not, however, their superior talent wins out in March and propels them deep into the tournament. Ryan, meanwhile, annually plays with essentially the same low-key deck of cards.
Secondly, Wisconsin’s characteristic style of play under Ryan -- plodding, low-scoring, half-court, defensive-minded basketball -- has translated very well to the overall style of the Big Ten as a whole. There's also obviously a familiarity factor between conference teams and Ryan has clearly demonstrated to own a head-to-head advantage against certain Big Ten coaches. In a nutshell, Ryan has perfected playing the Big Ten’s particular brand of basketball and done an excellent job of recruiting the types of kids who excel at that style of play.
Ryan has won multiple games in the NCAA Tournament five times in 12 overall appearances (so he makes the Sweet 16 almost 50% of the time). But just as there have been years wherein Wisconsin probably should have advanced farther, there probably also have been years that Wisconsin has simply been overseeded (perhaps the result of an overhyped Big Ten), creating the illusion of underachievement.
The Big Ten, as a body of work, has only two national titles to its name in the last 25+ years. There are three Big Ten teams who have enjoyed Final Four-level NCAA success over the past couple of decades (Michigan State, Ohio State and Michigan) and it is no coincidence that those teams are able to recruit and field the types of athletic and 5-star players that Wisconsin cannot. This in turn gives those teams a greater chance of success outside of Big Ten play. -
PrescottRyan's Wisconsin rosters are usually led by players who have been in his system for awhile and have extensive college basketball experience. He chooses to develop good talent as opposed to recruiting 5 star players.There are some who believe that experience trumps talent. Apparently, that is what Ryan believes.
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Laley23
Rec. We will just agree to disagree.
I mean, we agree on certain things like Bo doesn't get recruits. But disagree on it being an excuse for failing in March.
We also disagree on failing lol. I just can't get behind a guy who has NEVER (ok, didn't look it up 100%, hut I'm pretty sure) beaten a higher seed in March. That isn't some bad luck bounces. 12 years of it is a trend. It isn't overseeding or bad matchups. 12 years is a trend.
Maybe if he is a 1 seed he won't have to worry about it
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reclegend22
If Bo loses his first round game this year (which will likely mean he'd have lost to a 14 or possibly even 15 seed) then I will officially buy into that trend and surrender my argument. Until then, I will agree to disagree.
One thing is certain, though, and that is that I love the guy as much as you hate him. Lol. -
Laley23
Only 1 slight difference. I acknowledge he is a great coach.reclegend22;1584652 wrote:If Bo loses his first round game this year (which will likely mean he'd have lost to a 14 or possibly even 15 seed) then I will officially buy into that trend and surrender my argument. Until then, I will agree to disagree.
One thing is certain, though, and that is that I love the guy as much as you hate him. Lol. -
Terry_Tate
Bo Ryan has 1 win against a team seeded higher than his in the tournament and that was in 2009 when #12 Wisconsin beat #5 Florida State. Elite 8 year the best seed they beat was a 10 seed.Laley23;1584641 wrote:Rec. We will just agree to disagree.
I mean, we agree on certain things like Bo doesn't get recruits. But disagree on it being an excuse for failing in March.
We also disagree on failing lol. I just can't get behind a guy who has NEVER (ok, didn't look it up 100%, hut I'm pretty sure) beaten a higher seed in March. That isn't some bad luck bounces. 12 years of it is a trend. It isn't overseeding or bad matchups. 12 years is a trend.
Maybe if he is a 1 seed he won't have to worry about it -
Prescott
I am not sure that this is correct criteria for judging Ryan.The same could be said for many coaches who are considered good , if not great tournament coaches.Terry_Tate;1584662 wrote:Bo Ryan has 1 win against a team seeded higher than his in the tournament and that was in 2009 when #12 Wisconsin beat #5 Florida State. Elite 8 year the best seed they beat was a 10 seed.
Most, me included, consider Coach K to be a great tournament coach. His titles prove that. His teams have failed to live up to their seed in many tournaments.I went back 10 years and checked Duke's tournament record.As a #2 seed they have lost to a #15(Lehigh),#3('Nova),and a #7(WVU). As a #1 seed they have lost to #5 twice('Zona)(Sparty), a #4 seed(LSU) and a #2(no biggie). As a #6 seed Duke lost to a 11 seed(VCU).
Defeating a higher seed is tough when your team is always seeded in the top 20 or so.I think many coaches fall under this umbrella of failure. -
SportsAndLady
"Many" coaches have been coaching for 12 years and have only defeated 1 opponent seeded higher than them?Prescott;1584821 wrote:I am not sure that this is correct criteria for judging Ryan.The same could be said for many coaches who are considered good , if not great tournament coaches.
Most, me included, consider Coach K to be a great tournament coach. His titles prove that. His teams have failed to live up to their seed in many tournaments.I went back 10 years and checked Duke's tournament record.As a #2 seed they have lost to a #15(Lehigh),#3('Nova),and a #7(WVU). As a #1 seed they have lost to #5 twice('Zona)(Sparty), a #4 seed(LSU) and a #2(no biggie). As a #6 seed Duke lost to a 11 seed(VCU).
Defeating a higher seed is tough when your team is always seeded in the top 20 or so.I think many coaches fall under this umbrella of failure. -
Terry_Tate
The best way to put it is Bo Ryan has NEVER beaten a top 4 seed at Wisconsin. Not one single time in 12 years has Wisconsin beaten a "top 16" team in the NCAA tournament. Duke doesn't usually beat teams seeded above them because they are almost always a 1 or 2 seed. Sometimes a 3 seed but Duke has had way fewer chances than Wisconsin. Bo Ryan is 0-6 against teams seeded 4 or better.SportsAndLady;1584833 wrote:"Many" coaches have been coaching for 12 years and have only defeated 1 opponent seeded higher than them?