Natl Championship Team Will Never Really Know Will They?

• Mooney44Cards

  

  WebFire;1330450 wrote:Just seems like a common complaint that no one has an answer for. You have to punish this way or there is nothing to hold schools accountable to.

  Also: sanctions aren't meant to punish those who committed violations, it's meant to deter others from doing it in the future. If they let Ohio State play in the bowl game and there's no repercussions for breaking the rules, what's to stop every other team from doing it? If anything, 2012 OSU is the perfect example of why not to break the rules and now compliance officers will have something to point to and say "See what happens if we break the rules?".
  
  Sure, someone will quote this and say "yeah but look its not stopping other schools from committing violations". And I'll reply and say imagine how many more schools would break the rules if they knew they could still play for and win conference championships, bowl games, and national championships.
• vball10set

  You got all the answers, don't ya', Mooney :rolleyes:
• Mooney44Cards

  

  vball10set;1330495 wrote:You got all the answers, don't ya', Mooney :rolleyes:

  Apparently I do, since you didn't argue the point and decided instead to reply with a sarcastic comment. OMG you're rolling your eyes, I'm so mad now!
• vball10set

  Mooney44Cards;1330501 wrote:Apparently I do, since you didn't argue the point and decided instead to reply with a sarcastic comment. OMG you're rolling your eyes, I'm so mad now!

  OMG? really??
  
  edit: seems as if you really are mad, sorry---now I'll have to buy you a beer at MVR next time I see you in there...
• FatHobbit

  

  WebFire;1330450 wrote:Just seems like a common complaint that no one has an answer for. You have to punish this way or there is nothing to hold schools accountable to.

  Mooney44Cards;1330492 wrote:Also: sanctions aren't meant to punish those who committed violations, it's meant to deter others from doing it in the future. If they let Ohio State play in the bowl game and there's no repercussions for breaking the rules, what's to stop every other team from doing it?

  The schools let it go because they are making a ton of money anyway. Make them write a BIG fat check and see how long it takes them to clean it up on their own.
• WebFire

  FatHobbit;1330538 wrote:The schools let it go because they are making a ton of money anyway. Make them write a BIG fat check and see how long it takes them to clean it up on their own.

  It would have to be really, really big. And if you go that route, you are basically letting schools "buy" the cheating. You don't think they could find boosters willing to help foot the bill to do some illegal stuff in exchange for winning?
• Fly4Fun

  

  FatHobbit;1330538 wrote:The schools let it go because they are making a ton of money anyway. Make them write a BIG fat check and see how long it takes them to clean it up on their own.

  Don't they do that already? With the forfeited games, the $$ from any bowls has to be repaid? I thought that happened at least with the bowl game against Arkansas.
• FatHobbit

  

  WebFire;1330545 wrote:It would have to be really, really big. And if you go that route, you are basically letting schools "buy" the cheating. You don't think they could find boosters willing to help foot the bill to do some illegal stuff in exchange for winning?

  It would have to be really B1G. But I'm not sure the schools care so much about winning as they do about the money. Put OSU's football program (for example) in the red for a couple years and see if they don't get it cleaned up.
• Fly4Fun

  

  FatHobbit;1330557 wrote:It would have to be really B1G. But I'm not sure the schools care so much about winning as they do about the money. Put OSU's football program (for example) in the red for a couple years and see if they don't get it cleaned up.

  Problem with that is then you'd have 1 sport's mistakes hurting other sports. Most schools count on football revenue to help out with the funding for other sports.
  
  Also, association with the NCAA is completely voluntary, and with the super conferences forming up (giving more power to schools or conferences) if the NCAA starts to hammer schools too hard you could see some splintering possibly.
  
  The NCAA depends on schools.
• FatHobbit

  

  Fly4Fun;1330560 wrote:Problem with that is then you'd have 1 sport's mistakes hurting other sports. Most schools count on football revenue to help out with the funding for other sports.
  
  Also, association with the NCAA is completely voluntary, and with the super conferences forming up (giving more power to schools or conferences) if the NCAA starts to hammer schools too hard you could see some splintering possibly.
  
  The NCAA depends on schools.

  I agree, but I even felt sorry for the players left at USC after Pete the cheat and a couple of guilty players took off. They didn't do anything and they took all the punishment.
• vball10set

  Fly4Fun;1330560 wrote: Also, association with the NCAA is completely voluntary, and with the super conferences forming up (giving more power to schools or conferences) if the NCAA starts to hammer schools too hard you could see some splintering possibly.
  
  The NCAA depends on schools.

  One can only hope...
• WebFire

  Fly4Fun;1330560 wrote:Problem with that is then you'd have 1 sport's mistakes hurting other sports. Most schools count on football revenue to help out with the funding for other sports.

  Good point, and one that was discussed with PSU's monetary penalties. If I remember right, some thought the penalties were too large, mainly for this reason.
• Tiernan

  The USC and OSU violations are apples and oranges. USC was cheating to bring in better players to win more games. OSU failed to report some existing players making stupid choices. Not even close in any way shape or form. OSU got screwed mostly because Tressel bald face lied directly to an NCAA investigator. Then we "celebrate" the man in front of the kids who he totally fucked over. Sickening.
• Mooney44Cards

  

  Tiernan;1330575 wrote:The USC and OSU violations are apples and oranges. USC was cheating to bring in better players to win more games. OSU failed to report some existing players making stupid choices. Not even close in any way shape or form. OSU got screwed mostly because Tressel bald face lied directly to an NCAA investigator. Then we "celebrate" the man in front of the kids who he totally fucked over. Sickening.

  They both played games with ineligible players.
• HitsRus

  

  Just seems like a common complaint that no one has an answer for. You have to punish this way or there is nothing to hold schools accountable to.

  Also: sanctions aren't meant to punish those who committed violations, it's meant to deter others from doing it in the future.

  Really?...using injustice, arbitrariness as a deterrence to keep people inline????
  Any system that punishes the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is obviously broken.....and it is broken, and has been for quite some time.
• HitsRus

  

  Also, association with the NCAA is completely voluntary, and with the super conferences forming up (giving more power to schools or conferences) if the NCAA starts to hammer schools too hard you could see some splintering possibly.
  
  The NCAA depends on schools.

  
  I wouldn't bet the farm on that. The NCAA has schools by the financial balls. What they did to OSU (and specifically to Devier Posey) was bad...what they did to Penn State was a crime. PSU should have sued for the gross overreach of their authority, and made them show in a court of law, justification for the over the top punishment. So why didn't they?....PSU is dependent on the revenue stream, and very simply put, could not 'go it alone'. Membership is not really 'voluntary' if you want a big time college athletic program. Sure, West Podunk University could quit and join the NAIA....but PSU?.....nahhhhhh. They did the only thing they could do...and that was shut up, bend over, and take all the butt******* that the NCAA wanted to give them.
  
  The NCAA is arbitrary, and inconsistent with its penalties... and far too often lets public opinion influence its decsion making.
  The NCAA needs to get real with its rule book...and condense it by 75% so somebody with good intentions can actually comply. It needs to codify violations and list specific penalties for specific violations instead of winging it each investigation. And certainly not the least...it needs to get back to being an advocate for amateur sports, instead of a cash cow for schools, coaches, networks, talking head sports analysts and everyone else who makes a living off the labor of student athletes.
• WebFire

  HitsRus;1330734 wrote:Really?...using injustice, arbitrariness as a deterrence to keep people inline????
  Any system that punishes the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is obviously broken.....and it is broken, and has been for quite some time.

  What is your proposal for punishing without affecting anyone? It's impossible.
• HitsRus

  

  I think I outlined an action plan above that exhibits a framework for reform.
  

  What is your proposal for punishing

  Maybe they need to be less 'punishing' and more rewarding for good behavior. Maybe they need to be less restricting in what is considered an improper benefit. I probably could put together a whole list so every NCAA ass kisser could shoot holes in them and tell me why they won't work. That's not the point. The system's not working and those business it is, need to realize it and fix it.
• WebFire

  HitsRus;1330901 wrote: Maybe they need to be less 'punishing' and more rewarding for good behavior. Maybe they need to be less restricting in what is considered an improper benefit. I probably could put together a whole list so every NCAA ass kisser could shoot holes in them and tell me why they won't work. That's not the point. The system's not working and those business it is, need to realize it and fix it.

  Doesn't matter of there was only 1 rule. Teams would be breaking it and trying to get away with it.
• HitsRus

  

  doesn't matter then if there is 400 pages ..500 pages.... 600 pages.
  Might as well make it 1 rule...then we wouldn't have to have investigators chasing around trying to find out who attended what barbeque.
• ThePatriot

  dwccrew;1329646 wrote:Ummmm, just once in the last decade has Ohio State been dubbed by the media as the pre-season #1 in 2006 and they finished #2. Wow, the media was so off on that. :rolleyes:
  
  I can't think of another year in which they started the season #1. They have started in the top 5 a lot, but I believe they were only a pre-season #1 in 2006. Keep making things up though.

  Okay, you're right about that but they were ranked #2 in the preseason AP poll in '03, '08, '10, and in '06 ranked at #1. So yeah, that's one hell of a media bias. :rolleyes:
• gyea36

  Using ESPN's logic, Ohio State would definitely beat ND because they have in all of their meetings since 1995
• jmog

  As a huge OSU fan, watching our poor tackling on defense many times this season, both ND and Alabama beats us this year.
  
  Take this season for what it was, one heck of an undefeated season when the kids KNEW they had nothing to play for (bowl game wise).
• ThePatriot

  Also, I think KNOWING you have nothing to play for has it's advantages. The coaches and players don't have the kind of pressure that you might feel otherwise, perhaps especially in tight games.
  
  So actually, in the record books there will be a asterisk next to Ohio State's undefeated 2012 season, since no one will ever know if the team and staff would have played their hand the same way if their season had championship possibilities.
• LJ

  

  ThePatriot;1332490 wrote:Also, I think KNOWING you have nothing to play for has it's advantages. The coaches and players don't have the kind of pressure that you might feel otherwise, perhaps especially in tight games.
  
  So actually, in the record books there will be a asterisk next to Ohio State's undefeated 2012 season, since no one will ever know if the team and staff would have played their hand the same way if their season had championship possibilities.

  
  LOL LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.