Carolina @ Duke - Round 2

• ironman02

  Prescott;1104123 wrote:What do you think of his basketball IQ? Sometimes , I wonder about his decision making.

  Barnes is a very cerebral person, or at least that's the way it seems. Sometimes I think, though, that he thinks too much. Carolina's offense obviously runs through the bigs, so I think sometimes Barnes feels the need to force a shot or try to make a play that isn't there in an attempt to get into the flow of the game. When he just lets the game come to him, but also gets into a rhythm early, he tends to play very well. But if he doesn't get a few shots to fall, he starts pressing and ends up making mistakes. He does seem to commit some pretty dumb fouls at times too, but I think those are usually out of frustration. The expectations for Barnes coming out of high school were simply unrealistic. He has an NBA body, but he doesn't have freakish athleticism. He's developing into a very good college player, he has the potential to be a GREAT college player if he sticks around, and I think he'll eventually be a good pro. His work ethic is outstanding, so I think that he'll eventually be close to what everyone expected him to be.
• reclegend22

  

  ironman02 wrote:The kid wants his jersey in the rafters,

  
  
  What are the official requirements for a North Carolina player to have his jersey suspended from the Dean Dome roof? Aside from having a heartbeat.
  
  
  
  I realize Carolina has had some outstanding talent pass through Chapel Hill on their way to successful and sometimes Hall-of-Fame NBA careers, but I've always loved the way Duke handles the retirement of jerseys. You either win national player of the year, national defensive player of the year or break a major national record (such as Bobby Hurley's all-time NCAA assist mark), or your jersey number continues to be worn.
  
• RiverRat13

  Only the front row jerseys are retired.
• reclegend22

  

  RiverRat13;1104137 wrote:Only the front row jerseys are retired.

  Ah, gotcha. So what are the jerseys in the back?
• ironman02

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men's_basketball_players
• RiverRat13

  "To be honored, a player must be: the Most Valuable Player of a National Championship-winning team, an ACC Player of the Year, a first- or second-team All-America, an NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player or a member of a gold medal-winning Olympic team"
  
  "To have a jersey retired, a player must win one of the following six national player of the year awards: Associated Press, National Association of Basketball Coaches, Sporting News, John R. Wooden Award, Oscar Robertson Trophy, and Naismith College Player of the Year."
  
  per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men%27s_basketball_players
• RiverRat13

  Yet Duke still hangs the regular season title banner.
  
  The ACC Tournament winner is recognized as the ACC Champion. But the ACC Regular Season Champion is still officially recognized. It is basically the opposite of every other conference.
• reclegend22

  

  RiverRat13;1104141 wrote:"To be honored, a player must be: the Most Valuable Player of a National Championship-winning team, an ACC Player of the Year, a first- or second-team All-America, an NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player or a member of a gold medal-winning Olympic team"
  
  "To have a jersey retired, a player must win one of the following six national player of the year awards: Associated Press, National Association of Basketball Coaches, Sporting News, John R. Wooden Award, Oscar Robertson Trophy, and Naismith College Player of the Year."
  
  per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men's_basketball_players

  Thanks for clearing that up. Now that I think of it, I believe ironman02 has gone over this before. Anyway, Carolina does it the right way then. Retiring a jersey should definitely be left for only the most special of cases. For players that weren't just good, but were legendary.
• RiverRat13

  reclegend22;1104144 wrote:Thanks for clearing that up. Now that I think of it, I believe ironman02 has gone over this before. Anyway, Carolina does it the right way then. Retiring a jersey should definitely be left for only the most special of cases. For players that weren't just good, but were legendary.

  Duke should definitely build a new stadium to hang the numerous jerseys they could hang
• ironman02

  RiverRat13;1104143 wrote:Yet Duke still hangs the regular season title banner.
  
  The ACC Tournament winner is recognized as the ACC Champion. But the ACC Regular Season Champion is still officially recognized. It is basically the opposite of every other conference.

  Exactly. I think that's why this is always such a big deal. I don't know all the other conference policies, but it seems as though the ACC is definitely in the minority when it comes to how the official champion is recognized.
• RiverRat13

  ironman02;1104146 wrote:Exactly. I think that's why this is always such a big deal. I don't know all the other conference policies, but it seems as though the ACC is definitely in the minority when it comes to how the official champion is recognized.

  It doesn't make any sense except that it is tradition. And I can live with that. I just posted to refute ccrunner's post #104 that only the ACCT winner hangs a banner.
• reclegend22

  

  RiverRat13;1104145 wrote:Duke should definitely build a new stadium to hang the numerous jerseys they could hang

  
  
  I don't know, I'd call guys like Heyman, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Battier, Williams and Redick pretty legendary on the college level. I'm not sure Carolina could name many better. Scott, Ford, Worthy, Jordan, Jamison and some others were really good, but even a guy like Jordan never had the college career of Christian Laettner. Not sure I follow you.
  
  Unless you just don't want to play in Cameron anymore, which, sadly, I'm not sure why as you've beaten us there five times since 2006. Then again, Duke won in the Dean Dome in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010 and 2012. So, we're even
• RiverRat13

  reclegend22;1104156 wrote:
  
  I don't know, I'd call guys like Heyman, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Battier, Williams and Re**** pretty legendary on the college level. I'm not sure Carolina could name many better. Scott, Ford, Worthy, Jordan, Jamison and some others were really good, but even a guy like Jordan never had the college career of Christian Laettner. Not sure I follow you.
  
  Unless you just don't want to play in Cameron anymore, which, sadly, I'm not sure why as you've beaten us there five times since 2006. Then again, Duke won in the Dean Dome in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010 and 2012. So, we're even

  I was being serious that Duke has plenty of jerseys they could hang. I meant they should get rid of Cameron. I'd love to see Duke with a 20k seat stadium half full of UNC fans.
• reclegend22

  

  RiverRat13;1104159 wrote:I was being serious that Duke has plenty of jerseys they could hang. I meant they should get rid of Cameron. I'd love to see Duke with a 20k seat stadium half full of UNC fans.

  Oh haha. Yeah, truth be told, having spent a good deal of time down in Durham over the years for the Duke Basketball Camp, you're exactly right. Duke fans are pretty scarce in the area and I'm not sure it would be all that far fetched to say that more Carolina fans would find their way into a 20,000-seat arena than fans of Duke. Swamisez, a citizen of North Carolina, could probably elaborate even more.
  
  I would guess that this is largely because most of alumni from the state school North Carolina are Carolinians who stick around and continue to live in the area for the rest of their lives while graduates of the much smaller private school Duke leave forever. Nationally, however, Duke draws as many fans to venues around the country as any program outside of probably Kentucky. Blue Devil fans travel and represent well.
• reclegend22

  

  Riverrat, were you the Huddler who attended UNC and worked with Woody Durham on the Tar Heel Radio Network as a student? I remember a Carolina fan talking about that on JJ years ago but I've forgotten who that was.
• DeyDurkie5

  

  UNC is the better team. UNC will win the rematch if it happens. Better length, more athletic, and overall a better team. I love the argument that "because duke has more acct championships in the past, they will win this year" LOL yeah, makes sense!
• swamisez

  

  Heels have had the more talented team every time they have played Duke since 2004, yet Duke still manages to get victories?
  Roy can't get his guys to bring the intensity at times and as a result they fall to teams who are hungrier. Last night, blood lust motivated the group and they came out and spanked Duke. UNC can do this to all but 4/5 teams in the country, but they just don't. I see why so many heel fans get enraged watching them at times, there just isn't that fire, Hansbrough brought it but since then the only glimpses of it you see come from John Henson.
  
  Pretty much what you expect from Duke. If a team decides they want to hedge the high ball screen and push Rivers farther away from the basket you can all but eliminate his driving opportunities. Zeller would hedge him out high, and Henson would patrol the paint. Pretty hard to get good looks at the rim with that kind of protection. This is why UNC is one of the best defensive teams in the country. The achilles is still Kendal Marshall, in late game situations teams will isolate him and try to drive past him for the 8-10 foot jumper or kick to someone open because of help-side. Same thing with Aaron Craft and Ohio State. Even then, that team needs a tremendous night shooting to best the Heels.
  
  No idea what Duke will do over the next week. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they won the league tournament. Curry and Rivers go off, Plumlees show up to play and all is well again. Also wouldn't be shocked if in doing so they win by 4-6 points every game and look largely unimpressive. It is kind of how it has been the last 8 years for the Devils.
  
  For Carolina, I would be surprised if they won the ACCT simply because they don't have anything to play for. They beat Duke on their home floor, maybe they want revenge on FSU? Roy has to find a way to make his kids play with anger and that is just something you don't often see when you watch them. If you hear UNC players talking in press conf about revenge on FSU, then lookout, they are going to steamroll the tournament.
  
  The thing that chaps my ass the most about last night, the recruits in the building don't have any intent on going to Duke (aside from Suilamon who had already committed). They were milking it for free tix to Duke UNC and even if they were interested, after hearing the tongue lashing K put on his guys in the locker room at half, they are probably not interested in playing for someone who berates them like that. Which is fine, I don't think K wants kids who don't want coached and want to hear that they are already polished. The hard part is, there is a recruiting class of exactly one player coming in next year, and I don't see many kids with attitudes like Laettner, Redick, and Brand out there to recruit. Feels like its morphing into 2005 all over again from a recruiting standpoint.
  
  Lastly, Duke will probably never build another basketball arena. There is no real parking on campus to facilitate the parking needs of a 20K seat stadium, also as some have mentioned Duke has an undergrad population of 6,200, 23% of which are from Asia and are chained to a desk in Perkins. Carolina has a million Wal-Mart Heel fans who rushed out this morning to paste their UNC fish eats Duke fish sticker on their Ford Escort. If a larger venue was built it would just amount to Tarhole fans stalking outside the arena hoping to get a cheap ticket to watch UNC beat RatFace and Dook and virtually every other home game being a cabal of opposing team fans in the upper deck yelling and screaming because there aren't enough Duke fans to fill the stadium.
• Rotinaj

  

  Duke will lose in the 2nd round of the NCAA tourny...BOOK IT!!!!!!
• RiverRat13

  reclegend22;1104163 wrote:Riverrat, were you the Huddler who attended UNC and worked with Woody Durham on the Tar Heel Radio Network as a student? I remember a Carolina fan talking about that on JJ years ago but I've forgotten who that was.

  Yep. I interned and worked at a Vance County radio station with new play-by-play man Jones Angell. I was extremely excited for Jones when his loyalty to UNC was rewarded.
• swamisez

  

  I hope Duke loses in the first round of the ACC tournament and somehow gets shipped out of Greensboro. It used to be an advantage to play close to home, but now with the pod system and local teams there the last three times Duke has played in North Carolina for the NCAA tournament it has been a pain. In 2009 when Duke was in Gboro there were 15K Heel fans there cheering for Texas the entire game. That was a painful experience.
  
  In 2010, thankfully Carolina was in the NIT and Duke played its games in Jacksonville
  
  Last year in Charlotte there Heel fans dominated TWC arena and after the UNC-Wash game many opted for Michigan gear to cheer on Beilein's group.
  
  I hope Duke finds a way to be sent elsewhere for the tournament, if they stay in Greensboro I don't think they survive round 2 either. If they go elsewhere they at least get to the sweet 16.
• RiverRat13

  swamisez;1104249 wrote:Heels have had the more talented team every time they have played Duke since 2004, yet Duke still manages to get victories?
  Roy can't get his guys to bring the intensity at times and as a result they fall to teams who are hungrier.

  Duke was clearly more talented in '06 and '10, but your point for the most part still stands. People who knock Roy's X's and O's are out of line. His Secondary Break is as innovative X's and O's wise as anything in the last 30 years. K doesn't do anything revolutionary offensively, but he's an incredible defensive coach and probably the best motivator of his generation. That's where his greatness lies.
• swamisez

  

  I agree on 2006, Duke was the more talented group. Not so in 2010 despite the struggles by UNC
  
  In retrospect, the Duke team with Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler, and Jon Scheyer was more talented than the Carolina in 2010. However all season that team with Ed Davis, John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Deon Thompson, Marcus Ginyard, Dexter Strickland, the Wear Twins and Larry Drew was the more talented group. They just didn't play together.
• RiverRat13

  swamisez;1104265 wrote:I agree on 2006, Duke was the more talented group. Not so in 2010 despite the struggles by UNC
  
  In retrospect, the Duke team with Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler, and Jon Scheyer was more talented than the Carolina in 2010. However all season that team with Ed Davis, John Henson, Tyler Zeller, Deon Thompson, Marcus Ginyard, Dexter Strickland, the Wear Twins and Larry Drew was the more talented group. They just didn't play together.

  Henson was extremely raw with no offensive game as a freshman. Outside of Brian Morrison, Larry Drew was the worst Carolina point guard of my lifetime. Ginyard had no offensive game. Strickland was a freshman. The Wear Twins in their third year barely average double figures on a bad UCLA team in a pathetic Pac-10. Zoubek and Thomas were more highly rated than the twins coming out of high school and both were seniors while the Wears were freshman. With Davis and Thompson alone UNC should have been a solid tourny team, but the guard play was abysmal. Those guards just weren't that talented. Smith, Scheyer and Singler were all rated higher coming out of high school than any guard on Carolina's roster and obviously were much better college players.
• swamisez

  

  this aspect conversation doesn't deserve any more banter, so the last thing I will contribute is
  Lance Thomas averaged 4.0 points per game for his career and Brian Zoubek was more or less a walk on until game 15 of his senior season. Even then his average was 4.5 ppg with just a 5.5 ppg and 7.7 rpg avg as a senior.
  
  They were great guys don't get me wrong but I would have rather had Henson as a frosh, Deon, and Either of the wear twins.
  Would they have won the title that year with those players? No, they needed the senior leadership from Thomas and Zoubek
• SportsAndLady

  

  wildcats20;1103974 wrote:It's the right call because he called a charge, but it was a bad call.
  
  You can't slide underneath a player once he is in the air and take a charge.

  Sorry to bring this all the way up, but I was going back through this thread and noticed this; didn't you tell me in a Kansas game a few weeks ago, that a charge call on Elijah Johnson was the right call despite the defnder sliding underneath him?
  
  I remember arguing about it with you and specifically saying you can't slide underneath the player with the ball while he's in the air, and take a charge. It was a call near half court, and it was against Kansas State.