Why hasn't OSU produced good pro quarterbacks?
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Commander of Awesome
Also look at it this way, 32 NFL teams, with only 3 QB roster spots. Some teams only keep 2. Of those 32, half have franchise QBs and dont develop QBs. That leaves a lot less chances for a QB to stick around, develop etc.. bc a QB is so important to the Franchise. Where say a WR a team keeps at least 5 and can stand to develop them. Look around the league, Peyton Manning is a starting QB from Tenn and has been since what, 98? What other starting QB from Tenn is starting in the NFL? I'd say overall OSU is doing pretty well preparing QBs for the Pros. Krenzel stuck around a few yrs, Pryor, Troy Smith. That's pretty solid when you consider the sample size. -
Scarlet_Buckeye
Commander of Awesome;870343 wrote:Also look at it this way, 32 NFL teams, with only 3 QB roster spots. Some teams only keep 2. Of those 32, half have franchise QBs and dont develop QBs. That leaves a lot less chances for a QB to stick around, develop etc.. bc a QB is so important to the Franchise. Where say a WR a team keeps at least 5 and can stand to develop them. Look around the league, Peyton Manning is a starting QB from Tenn and has been since what, 98? What other starting QB from Tenn is starting in the NFL? I'd say overall OSU is doing pretty well preparing QBs for the Pros. Krenzel stuck around a few yrs, Pryor, Troy Smith. That's pretty solid when you consider the sample size.
Excellent comment / point / post. -
FatHobbit
vball10set;870341 wrote:whether by concidence or not, the NFL rosters bear this out--go figureScarlet_Buckeye;870342 wrote:Why do you think the MAC has been so successful producing QBs?
Here are the QB's that threw for over 500 yards for each team last year. There are some QB's from smaller schools, but also quite a few from big schools and the bigger conferences.
Dallas
Jon Kitna - Central Washington
Tony Romo - Eastern Illinois
Giants
Eli Manning - Mississippi
Eagles
Michael Vick - Virg Tech
Kevin Kolb - Houston
Redskins
Donovan McNabb - Syracuse
Rex Grossman - Florida
Cardinals
Derek Anderson - Oregon State
John Skelton - Fordham
San Fran
Alex Smith - Utah
Troy Smith - OSU
Seattle
Hasselbeck - Boston College
Charlie Whitehurst - Clemson
St. Louis
Sam Bradford - Oklahoma
Bears
Jay Cutler - Vandy
Lions
Shaun Hill - Maryland
Drew Stanton - Michigan State
Matthew Stafford - Georgia
Packers
Aaron Rodgers - Claifornia
Vikings
Brett Favre - Southern Miss
Falcons
Matt Ryan - Boston College
Panthers
Jimmy Clausen - Notre Dame
Matt Moore - Oregon State
Saints
Drew Breese - Purdue
Tampa Bay
Josh Freeman - Kansas State
Buffalo
Ryan Fitzpatrick - Harvard
Miami
Chad Henne - Michigan
Pats
Tom Brady - Michigan
Jets
Mark Sanchez - USC
Broncos
Kyle Orton - Purdue
Tim Tebow - Florida
Chiefs
Matt Cassel - USC
Raiders
Jason Campbell - Auburn
Bruce Gradkowski - Toledo
Chargers
Philip Rivers - NC State
Ravens
Joe Flacco - Delaware
Bengals
Carson Palmer - USC
Browns
Colt McCoy - Texas
Jake Delhomme - Louisiana-Lafayette
Seneca Walace - Iowa State
Steelers
Ben Roethlisberger - Miami
Texans
Matt Schaub - Virginia
Colts
Peyton Manning - Tennessee
Jaguars
David Garrard - East Carolina
Titans
Kerry Collins - Penn State
Vince Young - Texas -
FatHobbit
Here is a breakdown by school
Auburn 1
Boston College 2
Central Washington 1
Claifornia 1
Clemson 1
Delaware 1
East Carolina 1
Eastern Illinois 1
Florida 2
Fordham 1
Georgia 1
Harvard 1
Houston 1
Iowa State 1
Kansas State 1
Louisiana-Lafayette 1
Maryland 1
Miami 1
Michigan 2
Michigan State 1
Mississippi 1
NC State 1
Notre Dame 1
Oklahoma 1
Oregon State 2
OSU 1
Penn State 1
Purdue 2
Southern Miss 1
Syracuse 1
Tennessee 1
Texas 2
Toledo 1
USC 3
Utah 1
Vandy 1
Virg Tech 1
Virginia 1 -
vball10set^^^interesting (both posts)--thanks for posting
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BigAppleBuckeye
First off ... great posts. Seriously, nicely done, particularly Scarlet, COA and FatHobbit.
Now, while these are strong, valid arguments pertaining to why, in general, it is hard for any particular school to produce a star NFL QB, you can apply this same logic to any big school. My question, at its core, is why OSU in particular has not done this successfully? USC, Michigan, Tennessee, etc all have produced at least one marquee NFL QB. -
FatHobbit
Also a breakdown by conference. (this took longer than it should have. I also wonder if I shouldn't have picked a higher number than 500 yards. It was completely arbitrary)
SEC 7
ACC 7
B1G 7
PAC 10 6
Big 12 5
1-AA 4
Conference USA 3
MAC 2
Big East 1
Div II 1
Independent 1
Mountain West 1
Sun Belt 1 -
FatHobbit
BigAppleBuckeye;870397 wrote:First off ... great posts. Seriously, nicely done, particularly Scarlet, COA and FatHobbit.
Now, while these are strong, valid arguments pertaining to why, in general, it is hard for any particular school to produce a star NFL QB, you can apply this same logic to any big school. My question, at its core, is why OSU in particular has not done this successfully? USC, Michigan, Tennessee, etc all have produced at least one marquee NFL QB.
I wasn't trying to take away from your question. It is a good one. We have had some pretty good qb's in the last 20 years. They just haven't panned out at the next level for some reason. -
se-alum
You're asking a question there is no answer to.BigAppleBuckeye;870397 wrote:First off ... great posts. Seriously, nicely done, particularly Scarlet, COA and FatHobbit.
Now, while these are strong, valid arguments pertaining to why, in general, it is hard for any particular school to produce a star NFL QB, you can apply this same logic to any big school. My question, at its core, is why OSU in particular has not done this successfully? USC, Michigan, Tennessee, etc all have produced at least one marquee NFL QB. -
vball10set
now I'm hurt--I thought my post was pretty darn good as wellBigAppleBuckeye;870397 wrote:First off ... great posts. Seriously, nicely done, particularly Scarlet, COA and FatHobbit.
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dwccrew
Ohio State has always been a program that relies on the ground game. That is why a lot of the running backs have had some success in the NFL and you see OSU running backs in the NFL much more than QB's. -
Mortgagestar1The SEC & Pac 10 are geared for speed and accuracy from a quick drop back QB. We see this each time a Big 10 play these two conferences. Power versus speed. Power worked in the 1970's and prior. Speed works in modern play.
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enigmaaxMortgagestar1;870767 wrote: Power worked in the 1970's and prior.
Not sure how accurate that is. Wasn't the Big Ten like 1-9 in Rose Bowls in the 70s? -
FatHobbit
enigmaax;870836 wrote:Not sure how accurate that is. Wasn't the Big Ten like 1-9 in Rose Bowls in the 70s?
Lol, and I think outside of OSU they have done well against the SEC recently. (I have not looked that up, but I thought the SEC troubles were pretty much all OSU's) -
BigAppleBuckeye
vball10set;870537 wrote:now I'm hurt--I thought my post was pretty darn good as well
My bad vball! Your posts are always on point, I just assumed it was understood
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vball10setBigAppleBuckeye;870994 wrote:My bad vball! Your posts are always on point, I just assumed it was understood
LOL--thanks BAB
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Writerbuckeye
I really think it has to do with football philosophy.
OSU has a strong tradition of running the ball, with some passing.
The two conference schools that have two QBs in the NFL (right now...not sure how long Henne will last) have both had a tradition of passing the ball more than OSU.
The PAC 10 has always been a passing league more than most.
I don't think speed has crap to do with this. OSU has produced a number of great wide receivers in the NFL, and speed hasn't been an issue. -
KnightRyder
Writerbuckeye;871147 wrote:I really think it has to do with football philosophy.
OSU has a strong tradition of running the ball, with some passing.
The two conference schools that have two QBs in the NFL (right now...not sure how long Henne will last) have both had a tradition of passing the ball more than OSU.
The PAC 10 has always been a passing league more than most.
I don't think speed has crap to do with this. OSU has produced a number of great wide receivers in the NFL, and speed hasn't been an issue.
no speed has a lot to do with it. the speed of the defenses in the big ten are slow and plodding. most qbs from the slow motion conference get to NFL and are overwhelmed with the speed of the players on the other side of the ball. -
Automatik
KnightRyder;871167 wrote:no speed has a lot to do with it. the speed of the defenses in the big ten are slow and plodding. most qbs from the slow motion conference get to NFL and are overwhelmed with the speed of the players on the other side of the ball.
What QBs from the Big 10 have been "overwhelmed"?
Also, there are plenty of defensive players in the NFL from the Big 10.
Once gain....talking out of your ass. -
LJ
KnightRyder;871167 wrote:no speed has a lot to do with it. the speed of the defenses in the big ten are slow and plodding. most qbs from the slow motion conference get to NFL and are overwhelmed with the speed of the players on the other side of the ball.
Yep, that's why Tom Brady and Drew Brees have been 2 of the most profilic passers of the past few years in the NFL :rolleyes: -
BoatShoesBigAppleBuckeye;870397 wrote:First off ... great posts. Seriously, nicely done, particularly Scarlet, COA and FatHobbit.
Now, while these are strong, valid arguments pertaining to why, in general, it is hard for any particular school to produce a star NFL QB, you can apply this same logic to any big school. My question, at its core, is why OSU in particular has not done this successfully? USC, Michigan, Tennessee, etc all have produced at least one marquee NFL QB.
I think it is because it is largely a crap shoot when drafting and recruiting QB's.
Think about examples like Jimmy Clausen and Todd Marinovich. Jimmy Clausen was in ESPN the Magazines NEXT when he was in 8th grade and was trained by QB guru Steve Clarkson and had two older brother's as college QB's his whole life. Yet, he was good in college but not unbelievable...and is about to sit the bench in the NFL it appears. Todd Marinovich was called the Robo QB and "the first test tube athlete." His father never even let him eat a big mac or watch cartoons. The kid had to take his own birthday cake to birthday parties that wasn't made with white flour. He went on to have a mediocre career. Both of them were literally bred to be NFL QB's with the best training and coaching available and neither lived up to expectations. Jimmy may still go on to have success but who knows?
For Every Peyton Manning, there's how many Jimmy Clausen's? And then, add in that Peyton Manning had Tom Moore and his simplistic one back scheme and the levels passing concept that Peyton mastered and an all-star GM and staff and all of the pieces fell together for Peyton to be successful.
At Michigan, Tom Brady would sit the bench in the second quarter for the phenom of the day, Drew Henson...who was also in ESPN the magazine as a high schooler. They called him the next John Elway. Where is Drew Henson? washed up out of both the Majors and the NFL...who mind you, was also beat out in Dallas by Tony Romo...an undrafted free agent out of Eastern Illinois...
Matt Ryan was only a 3 star recruit when he went to Boston College and Aaron Rodgers had to go to JUCO to even get a sniff before he ended up at Cal. Sam Bradford was also only a three star and Oklahoma fans preferred Keith Nichol from Michigan, a four star recruit. Bradford goes on to win the Heisman and have a phenomenal rookie year and Keith Nichol went on to play Wide Receiver at Michigan State after he got beat out by another 3 star recruit.
And the thing is, in the aggregate, star rankings do matter...but they appear to matter less for the QB position....at least when it comes to being a star NFL QB. If you get a 5 star QB recruit...odds are much higher that he makes the NFL than a 3 star QB recruit...but when it comes to being a star NFL QB like Aaron Rodgers....it's not clear.
In the last couple years Vince Young, Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford and Blaine Gabbert were 5 star recruits who went on to get drafted in the first round and Sanchez is a starter but not awesome by any means (yet anyways) and Vince Young has headed to the bench. Personally I think Stafford is another Jeff George. In Gabbert's class, Pryor and Dayne Christ were also 5 stars. Pryor is doubted to have the stuff to be a big time QB and Dayne Christ may lose his job to 3 star Tommy Rees. In Sanchez' high school class, he attended the elite 11 camp with Cincinnati's Rob Schoenhoft; who had the strongest arm at the camp by all accounts and had legitimate NFL size...Schoenhoft transferred to Delaware and Sanchez made the NFL.
So the bottom line is...you can recruit who appears the best of the best...even with all of the 7-on7's and camp circuits and it's still just as likely that a 3 star grey shirt from St. Henry Ohio will beat out the rocket armed elite 11 kid (who you also recruited over the kid from St. Ignatius, Brian Hoyer, who was only a 3 star but found his spot in the NFL as a backup).
Additionally, the NFL has made it extremely difficult for any QB to be good as they do not put their players in positions to have success. NFL teams largely do not use constraint plays to the extent more and more college programs are (especially now that the Run and Shoot has left the NFL scene) and accept the numerical disadvantage they have against the defense in running situations because QB's are not used in the running game (for the most part). They've adopted the Jim Tressel mindset that "welp we don't have anyone to block the safety if he comes in the box so you better have a player at the Running Back position."
Also, most pass plays aren't designed to make it easier on less than awesome QBs. The NFL still runs a curl flat against a Quarters and just expects the QB to be able to make the throw. If you can't make the throw before a fast reacting DB can get there then you're out of the league. You also don't see coaches going out of their way to high-low that corner so as to back him off the curl on first and second down like you might have seen when the Bills were running the Run and Shoot in the 90's. Plus, it's really hard to do that consistently anyway because the D-Line's are so good that you have to get rid of the ball. So you're left with telling Brady Quinn that he doesn't have all day to throw waiting for Samardzija to cross the field underneath Mcknight's Go Route and that he better get some balls and fire the ball in there, on time and on target with the DB sitting there ready to pick it off; and you end up getting a first round pick who dumps the ball off all day long.
So in sum...to me tOSU hasn't had a successful NFL QB because 1). It's really hard to get a guy who has the stuff to be one...even if you seemingly recruit well and 2). Even if you do, and that guy makes it to the NFL, like Bobby Hoying, the way the NFL plays offensive football makes it extremely difficult for someone who is just good but isn't absolutely awesome, physically and mentally, to have prolonged success. I mean Drew Brees passes as accurately as Olympic Archer's shoot a Bow and Arrow. -
Scarlet_Buckeye
BoatShoes;871209 wrote:I think it is because it is largely a crap shoot when drafting and recruiting QB's.
Think about examples like Jimmy Clausen and Todd Marinovich. Jimmy Clausen was in ESPN the Magazines NEXT when he was in 8th grade and was trained by QB guru Steve Clarkson and had two older brother's as college QB's his whole life. Yet, he was good in college but not unbelievable...and is about to sit the bench in the NFL it appears. Todd Marinovich was called the Robo QB and "the first test tube athlete." His father never even let him eat a big mac or watch cartoons. The kid had to take his own birthday cake to birthday parties that wasn't made with white flour. He went on to have a mediocre career. Both of them were literally bred to be NFL QB's with the best training and coaching available and neither lived up to expectations. Jimmy may still go on to have success but who knows?
For Every Peyton Manning, there's how many Jimmy Clausen's? And then, add in that Peyton Manning had Tom Moore and his simplistic one back scheme and the levels passing concept that Peyton mastered and an all-star GM and staff and all of the pieces fell together for Peyton to be successful.
At Michigan, Tom Brady would sit the bench in the second quarter for the phenom of the day, Drew Henson...who was also in ESPN the magazine as a high schooler. They called him the next John Elway. Where is Drew Henson? washed up out of both the Majors and the NFL...who mind you, was also beat out in Dallas by Tony Romo...an undrafted free agent out of Eastern Illinois...
Matt Ryan was only a 3 star recruit when he went to Boston College and Aaron Rodgers had to go to JUCO to even get a sniff before he ended up at Cal. Sam Bradford was also only a three star and Oklahoma fans preferred Keith Nichol from Michigan, a four star recruit. Bradford goes on to win the Heisman and have a phenomenal rookie year and Keith Nichol went on to play Wide Receiver at Michigan State after he got beat out by another 3 star recruit.
And the thing is, in the aggregate, star rankings do matter...but they appear to matter less for the QB position....at least when it comes to being a star NFL QB. If you get a 5 star QB recruit...odds are much higher that he makes the NFL than a 3 star QB recruit...but when it comes to being a star NFL QB like Aaron Rodgers....it's not clear.
In the last couple years Vince Young, Mark Sanchez, Matt Stafford and Blaine Gabbert were 5 star recruits who went on to get drafted in the first round and Sanchez is a starter but not awesome by any means (yet anyways) and Vince Young has headed to the bench. Personally I think Stafford is another Jeff George. In Gabbert's class, Pryor and Dayne Christ were also 5 stars. Pryor is doubted to have the stuff to be a big time QB and Dayne Christ may lose his job to 3 star Tommy Rees. In Sanchez' high school class, he attended the elite 11 camp with Cincinnati's Rob Schoenhoft; who had the strongest arm at the camp by all accounts and had legitimate NFL size...Schoenhoft transferred to Delaware and Sanchez made the NFL.
So the bottom line is...you can recruit who appears the best of the best...even with all of the 7-on7's and camp circuits and it's still just as likely that a 3 star grey shirt from St. Henry Ohio will beat out the rocket armed elite 11 kid (who you also recruited over the kid from St. Ignatius, Brian Hoyer, who was only a 3 star but found his spot in the NFL as a backup).
Additionally, the NFL has made it extremely difficult for any QB to be good as they do not put their players in positions to have success. NFL teams largely do not use constraint plays to the extent more and more college programs are (especially now that the Run and Shoot has left the NFL scene) and accept the numerical disadvantage they have against the defense in running situations because QB's are not used in the running game (for the most part). They've adopted the Jim Tressel mindset that "welp we don't have anyone to block the safety if he comes in the box so you better have a player at the Running Back position."
Also, most pass plays aren't designed to make it easier on less than awesome QBs. The NFL still runs a curl flat against a Quarters and just expects the QB to be able to make the throw. If you can't make the throw before a fast reacting DB can get there then you're out of the league. You also don't see coaches going out of their way to high-low that corner so as to back him off the curl on first and second down like you might have seen when the Bills were running the Run and Shoot in the 90's. Plus, it's really hard to do that consistently anyway because the D-Line's are so good that you have to get rid of the ball. So you're left with telling Brady Quinn that he doesn't have all day to throw waiting for Samardzija to cross the field underneath Mcknight's Go Route and that he better get some balls and fire the ball in there, on time and on target with the DB sitting there ready to pick it off; and you end up getting a first round pick who dumps the ball off all day long.
So in sum...to me tOSU hasn't had a successful NFL QB because 1). It's really hard to get a guy who has the stuff to be one...even if you seemingly recruit well and 2). Even if you do, and that guy makes it to the NFL, like Bobby Hoying, the way the NFL plays offensive football makes it extremely difficult for someone who is just good but isn't absolutely awesome, physically and mentally, to have prolonged success. I mean Drew Brees passes as accurately as Olympic Archer's shoot a Bow and Arrow.
All of this supports the "grind" argument. #ItsTrue -
FatHobbit
Scarlet_Buckeye;871284 wrote:All of this supports the "grind" argument. #ItsTrue
What about the 3 QB's from USC, 2 from Florida, 2 from Michigan, 2 from Texas, 1 from Oklahoma and 1 from Penn State? (Kerry Collins certainly did not grind at Penn State.) -
DeyDurkie5
KnightRyder;871167 wrote:no speed has a lot to do with it. the speed of the defenses in the big ten are slow and plodding. most qbs from the slow motion conference get to NFL and are overwhelmed with the speed of the players on the other side of the ball.
You really don't know anything when it comes to sports. -
vball10setKnightRyder;871167 wrote:no speed has a lot to do with it. the speed of the defenses in the big ten are slow and plodding. most qbs from the slow motion conference get to NFL and are overwhelmed with the speed of the players on the other side of the ball.
even though I was going to insert football for sports, but you beat me to it Durkie--well playedDeyDurkie5;871320 wrote:You really don't know anything when it comes to sports.