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Stat Questions

  • ricola
    Is the recovery of a blocked shot a rebound? Also---a blocked shot is not counted as a field goal attempt, is it? I was under the assumption it was not, but if so, how could the recovery be a rebound? If it is not a rebound, is it anything in the stat column?
    (I ask because a write-up of a pro game mentioned a player recovering a blocked shot to get double digit rebounds, and hence a triple-double)
  • riders1
    It probably is because a shot was taken and stats people have to show how the ball was recovered, just like an air ball doesn't hit the rim but the defense catches it so it would have to be a rebound. Also when no one catches a ball off the rim and it bounces on the floor and then is grabbed, is that a rebound? In high school it probably depends on who is keeping stats and their individual interpretation, that's why you see 2 or 3 newspaper articles and they end up with different totals on stats.
  • THE4RINGZ
    Oh, Pitman?
  • ricola
    or..if you block a shot and also recover the ball, you get a block AND a rebound?
  • GOONx19
    ^ Yes. A blocked shot is a missed field goal and the recovery is a rebound. In riders1 scenario where the ball hits the floor before recovery it is a rebound, as well.
  • ricola
    meanwhile, had read a bit more on this and came to the same conclusion. thanks.
    Here's another question: Saw a player recently attempt a shot in the lane area. He was driving under the basket, with the attempt to do a reverse layup. however, defense had good position, and he was forced to tiptoe the baseline, and when he attempted the shot was so far behind the backboard that his shot attempt hit the back of the backboard. Is this still a shot attempt (with no rebound obviously) or is this a turnover? or both?
  • tfloangel
    shot attempt with a team rebound, right? There's often 4-5 a game credited as a dead ball rebound to a particular team.
  • ricola
    but if ball hits back of board, it's OOB to the other team; no rebound, period--individual or team, no? the ball is dead as soon as it hits the back of the board.
  • riders1
    Yes the back of the board and supports are out of bounds, dead ball turnover.
  • wildcats20
    tfloangel;628290 wrote:shot attempt with a team rebound, right? There's often 4-5 a game credited as a dead ball rebound to a particular team.

    I think "team rebounds" are when, for example, a missed shot goes directly out of bounds.

    In the scenario of the "shot" hitting the back of the board, it's a shot attempt(I believe) and a TO. No rebound.
  • wildcats20
    How does everyone feel about assists??

    I think the standard definition is any pass that leads directly to a bucket, usually 2 or less dribbles. But what about on a foul on the shot?? When I was coaching I always told my stats guys to give an assist if the player makes BOTH free throws, but ONLY if he makes both. Now I know this is not used everywhere, actually I think it is somewhat frowned upon. I just always felt like you shouldn't penalize the passer for a foul being committed.
  • ricola
    no. that one I know. No assist on a missed shot and foul. Doesn't matter if he makes none, one, or both. At least OFFICIALLY that shouldn't be an assist. (the passer also gets the shaft if the pass recient misses a wide open bunny layup---but that's the breaks)
  • thePITman
    The following are my interpretations. Different leagues (NBA, OHSAA, Australian, etc.) keep stats slightly different.
    THE4RINGZ;627729 wrote:Oh, Pitman?
    -- A blocked shot counts as a field goal attempt for the offensive player.
    -- Whoever recovers the ball is credited with a rebound, be it an offensive or defensive rebound. As long as the shot is deemed a field goal attempt, it must have a rebounder, whether it is an individual or a team rebound, with the only exception I can think of being that the time expires for the period.
    -- If you want to get technical, even on a free throw which has a violation on the shooting team, a dead ball rebound is normally credited to the defensive team (or something like that? hmm). In this case, no free throw attempt would be credited no matter who records the violation - shooter or someone in the lane.
    -- If nobody recovers the ball and it goes out of bounds (even if after players fight over/deflect the ball), the appropriate team is credited with a TEAM rebound, either offensive or defensive. The same goes for a ball that bounces off the rim and hits support beams for the backboard, which would be a team defensive rebound for the defense.
    -- In more advanced stat-keeping systems (or foreign ones that keep "defensive assists"), if a teammate of the player who blocked the shot recovers the ball, the player who blocked the shot is credited with a "defensive assist". If the player who blocked the ball recovers the ball, he is not awarded a defensive assist.
    ricola;627757 wrote:or..if you block a shot and also recover the ball, you get a block AND a rebound?

    Yes.
    ricola;628178 wrote:Here's another question: Saw a player recently attempt a shot in the lane area. He was driving under the basket, with the attempt to do a reverse layup. however, defense had good position, and he was forced to tiptoe the baseline, and when he attempted the shot was so far behind the backboard that his shot attempt hit the back of the backboard. Is this still a shot attempt (with no rebound obviously) or is this a turnover? or both?
    tfloangel;628290 wrote:shot attempt with a team rebound, right?

    -- Correct. If it was deemed a field goal attempt, it would be a team rebound for the appropriate team.
    -- If the ball was stripped and hit the back of the backboard and then the ball awarded to the defensive team, it would be a turnover.
    -- Likewise, if a player commits an "player control"/charge while on offense, that player is credited with a turnover.
    wildcats20;628514 wrote:How does everyone feel about assists??

    I think the standard definition is any pass that leads directly to a bucket, usually 2 or less dribbles. But what about on a foul on the shot?? When I was coaching I always told my stats guys to give an assist if the player makes BOTH free throws, but ONLY if he makes both. Now I know this is not used everywhere, actually I think it is somewhat frowned upon. I just always felt like you shouldn't penalize the passer for a foul being committed.
    ricola;628574 wrote:no. that one I know. No assist on a missed shot and foul. Doesn't matter if he makes none, one, or both. At least OFFICIALLY that shouldn't be an assist. (the passer also gets the shaft if the pass recient misses a wide open bunny layup---but that's the breaks)

    -- If a player shoots and is fouled on the shot and the shot does not go in, it is not credited as a shot attempt, and it would not count as an assist if the player made any free throws. If the shot is good, though, an assist CAN be credited.
    -- It is a somewhat similar concept as pass interference in football. If the pass is incomplete and pass interference was called, there is no pass attempt. If the player catches the ball, a pass attempt, completion, and reception are all recorded (well, as long as the penalty was declined, since that's normally what happens).

    -- As for assists, this is the hardest part to record, and it is definitely a judgement call. There are many times where someone takes less than 2 dribbles, and an assist is not credited. There are other times when more than 2 dribbles are taken, and an assist is credited.
    -- If I pass it to our shooting guard just outside the 3-point arc, then he stands there for 3 seconds, pump fakes, takes 1 dribble closer, then makes a jump shot, an assist may or may not (probably not) be credited to the player who passed the ball. This would be because the pass did not directly lead to the score. It was the player with the ball that made the play, not the passer.
    -- If I get a defensive rebound and outlet pass to a team mate around mid-court, and he takes 3 or 4 dribbles (depending on how fast or slow the dribbler is, haha) and makes an easy layup, an assist may or may not be credited. Normally on quickly-developing fast breaks that occur like this, an assist may be credited.
    -- It is a judgement call as to whether or not the pass led to the score, or an independent offensive move by the scorer led to the score.
    -- The toughest ones are when there is an entry pass from a guard to a post player who takes a few dribbles or pump fakes with a power dribble, then scores inside. Normally the deciding factor is how long the play takes to develop after the player receives the ball. If the ball is caught on the block and the player fluidly moves, dribbles, pump fakes, and puts it up, an assist may be credited. Conversely, if the post player catches the entry pass, feels out the defender (like you see them do in the NBA a lot), fakes left, dribbles right, fakes again, and then scores 8 seconds later, an assist may or may not be credited.
    -- Again, it's a total judgement call. But when it comes down to it, 2 dribbles is a good measuring stick.

    I hope these explanations help. Please feel free to ask more.
  • ricola
    well done Pit! A true cornucopia of basketball knowledge! ( Interesting stuff. )
  • GOONx19
    I usually go one dribble/two seconds for an assist.
  • wildcats20
    By the way, I know giving the passer an assist on a foul and then making 2 FTs is not REALLY an assist. I wasn't questioning that, I was just getting opinions.

    And PIT, nice job.
  • majorspark
    Yes PIT did a great job of laying all that info out for us. It takes some time to make a detailed articulate informed post. Thanks for taking the time. This is why I frequent these sites.
  • tfloangel
    riders1;628486 wrote:Yes the back of the board and supports are out of bounds, dead ball turnover.


    Your right, and I don't know that it matters much, but if the player attempted a shot and backboard turning it over to the other team, wouldn't it also still be a matter of it being a "dead ball" rebound being credited to the other team? There would still need to be a rebound credited to the shot attempt. I'm not saying its 100% accurate, but that's how I'd credit it with computer stats. Backboard = out of bounds, so rebound to team X.


    edit - sorry... just now saw pitman's response. (wow, I do love being right from time to time, lol)
  • Pariah
    Another issue: we had a kid in the IVC several years ago - his dad was on the coaching staff - who seemed to always have these amazing stat lines. While he was a very good player, he seemed to always end up with at least 10 assists or rebounds. I would think "I remember 3 assists, but not 11" or "6 rebounds but not 13."

    Wildcats20's post prompted me to think of this situation. I understand WC20 was just doing it in a narrow situation and trying to reward a good pass. But can a coach, working with the statistician, fudge assists and rebounds that much? Do the two stats folks books have to agree?
  • thePITman
    Pariah;641792 wrote:Another issue: we had a kid in the IVC several years ago - his dad was on the coaching staff - who seemed to always have these amazing stat lines. While he was a very good player, he seemed to always end up with at least 10 assists or rebounds. I would think "I remember 3 assists, but not 11" or "6 rebounds but not 13."

    Wildcats20's post prompted me to think of this situation. I understand WC20 was just doing it in a narrow situation and trying to reward a good pass. But can a coach, working with the statistician, fudge assists and rebounds that much? Do the two stats folks books have to agree?

    In my experiences, this is more common in football for defensive tackles than it is for basketball with assists (or definitely rebounds). Assists are easy to fudge, though, since you could just disregard the "pass has to directly lead to the score" and just make it "who passed the scorer the ball" which some people think is the rule. Haha! For rebounds, it'd be much harder to fudge. The only leeway I could see with rebounds would be if two players grab the ball at the same time, you could either 1) Give the rebound to Player A then jump ball/turnover, 2) Give the rebound to Player B then jump ball/turnover, or 3) Give no rebound, credit a jump ball and/or a dead ball rebound to the team who won the jump ball.

    I think it'd be easier to fudge season cumulative stats more than it would game-night stats, since game-night is easier to contradict if you were at the game, but the season stats are often something that is re-watched on film by the coaches. (That's why football defensive stats are easier to fudge, since coaches are often the only ones keeping them (defensive). I keep our defensive stats, but our coach reviews the film every weekend and gives me corrections for each game, if there are any... but normally I'm pretty close.)

    That's my take. Game-by-game in the paper's article probably harder to fudge than season cumulative stats posted in the paper each week that the coach sends in (instead of a reporter recording, etc.) And along that line, remember that sometimes the reporters don't know the rules. Some do, some don't. It's really funny for me to know what the stats were the previous night then read an article the next day that is wrong. Haha!
  • GOONx19
    I'm almost positive that a Trumbull County coach padded stats for his son a couple years ago.
  • mhs95_06
    What is the proper ruling for rebounds when the player closest to the ball thinks there is a better chance for his team to get the ball if he tips it to a teammate, or tips it to an open area where he thinks a teammate can come up with it and he does. Who gets credit for the rebound? If it is the recoverer, does the tipper get any kind of credit?
  • GOONx19
    I'm pretty sure the tipper gets the rebound.
  • riders1
    I would think it would be whomever finally gets control of the ball, not the tipper.
  • GOONx19
    At least in the NBA I've seen it recorded as a simultaneous rebound and a pass.