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• Big Red Monster

  Piper could have been one of the biggest face champions that company ever had. He could have drawn some monster money.
• enigmaax

  Big Red Monster wrote: Piper could have been one of the biggest face champions that company ever had. He could have drawn some monster money.

  Piper was THE heel that launched Hulkamania and took the then-WWF to new mainstream heights.
• Big Red Monster

  A friend let me borrow Piper's book and it is one of the best that a wrestler has put out.
• KnightXC1

  

  enigmaax wrote:
  What I said (or meant) is that it took nearly 10 years for a former IC champ to become World Champion. The IC belt was implemented in 1979. Patterson, Muraco, Santana, Valentine - these guys all held the title and never won the World Title. Savage was the first former IC champion to become World Champ and that was in 1988. (Pedro Morales had been World Champ about a decade earlier, but didn't go on to win another one after his reigns.)
  
  In 1992, Bret Hart became just the 3rd IC champ to go on to win the World Title (Ultimate Warrior was the 2nd).
  
  Between Savage and Hart, you had guys like Rude, Mr. Perfect, and Kerry Von Erich who were main eventing cards all the time but who would never win the World Title.
  
  After Hart, you're getting close to the mid-90s (which is what I said) where yes, Michaels and Diesel used it as a stepping stone, but you also had the Mountie for 2 days, Jeff Jarrett a few times but for no more than 3 months, Ahmed Johnson for less than two months, Goldust a couple times for no more than 3 months, and Marc Mero for a month.
  
  From there, even guys who did go on to World Titles after winning the IC(Triple H, Austin) weren't typically given long reigns. If you're wearing it for a month, they aren't testing you as a champion. And by that point, it wasn't being used as it was in the 80s - on a B-card running at the same time as an A-card.
  
  I agree with you about DiBiase, who didn't get either belt but made them a lot of money with his top level feuds. As for Honky Tonk Man, you said he wasn't good but there was no one better. Well, doesn't that make him good at something? Yes, it is called "making money". Again, the whole purpose of the IC belt at the time was to have a main eventer capable of making money with a second level lineup. He was a main eventer with the deck stacked against him and still pulled a shit ton of money in. Hogan wasn't a good wrestler either. He was a character people liked who got all the best stories, but that doesn't change his impact.
  
  I don't disagree about Punk because that was the whole point. He had a little cult following and they put the strap on him without really developing his character. So when he suddenly went from guy who does cool moves to guy who has to carry a show, he wasn't ready for it. All the momentum he was building was undercut because they didn't actually establish him as a championship contender, they just threw the belt on him. They've done that with a few people and it isn't how they used to do things. As a result, I don't think there's as much prestige in the World Title, since you now have 15 guys walking around as former World Champions. Its a fine line because its cool that anyone can beat anyone on a given night, but it also makes title changes less special when they happen.

  I misunderstood your first point but get what you are saying, not that I feel it is very relevant to the topic.
  
  Once they got to around 1990 or so, they stopped having split shows for the most part. The Honky Tonk Man was not bringing in money for the WWF. He was pretty garbage in the ring. The only thing he had going for him was his gimmick which people hated. And because there was no one else around at the time, they didn't take the belt off of him. Top faces in 1989 were Hogan and Warrior and after that there was a big drop off in fan support for anyone, outside of maybe Jim Duggan. Perfect probably could have been champ but he was very badly injured before losing the belt to Hart and didn't wrestle for over a year I believe so that killed his momentum. Rude left the company and for that he wasn't going to be champ. Kerry von Erich could have made it to the big time but he sadly passed away.
  
  Back to the point, the whole purpose of the IC belt in the 90's was A) it was basically the belt for the best wrestlers on the show and B) gave those guys a chance to prove themselves to see if they could be the WWF Champion. No one cared or has ever really cared for Jeff Jarrett. The fact he was a world champion is sickening and show how awful WCW was. They gave Ahmed Johnson a shot but he was hurt too much and Mero got overshadowed by Sable so he wasn't going anywhere.
  
  HHH, Rock, and Austin didn't need long reigns as IC Champion because they became so over with the crowd that they were propelled to the main event. And at that time again, they weren't running two shows anymore so how they used it in the 80's is irrelevant. During the 90's and early 00's, it was a stepping stone and a test to see if guys could be the top dog in the company. Do you really believe Mero, Johnson, or Jarrett would have ever become WWF Champion with guys like Hart, Michaels, Undertaker, Austin, Rock, and HHH around? I sure don't.
  
  Back to Swagger now, they gave him the ECW Title for a long time and he was good in the ring and had that persona to get him over. He was a very good choice to win MITB and is perfect to be on SD! where there is not as much pressure as there is on Raw.
• Heretic

  

  Big Red Monster wrote: Teddy Sr did deserve a run with the title, but Hogan was too much of an ass to let him get it.

  Not just too much of an ass to let him get it, but also too much of an ass to let Savage beat him for the belt WITHOUT a generous dose of Hogan-help at WM IV.
• thereddragin

  enigmaax wrote: Its a fine line because its cool that anyone can beat anyone on a given night, but it also makes title changes less special when they happen.

  You do realize that these fights are predetermined (sp?) right?
• enigmaax

  knight - Somebody asked about the purpose of the IC belt "back in the day". To me, the "day" started in the late 70s/early 80s. The belt was used differently in the 80s than in the 90s, we don't disagree about that. If you aren't interested in the entire history, that's okay.
  
  I agree that the "best wrestler", as far as technical wrestling was a consideration in the early 90s. Mr. Perfect, Hart, and Michaels were examples of this. And I don't entirely disagree that it gave them a chance to prove whether or not they could be World Champs. That chance was a by product, in my opinion. Razor Ramon had a highly successful run with the belt, but wasn't going to get a shot at the top. The thing is, they were never trying to sell the IC champ as the face of the company at that point, like they were in the 80s. Some people used it to propel themselves, but it wasn't a main event title. An example, Michaels and Ramon used it to steal the show with the first ladder match. They weren't hyped as main eventers at the time, so the simple fact that there was a physical prop to hang above a ladder did more to launch them than the fact that it was the IC title.
  
  In short, I just don't think the IC belt was ever meant as a test run for something bigger and its prestige wasn't celebrated as much in the 90s despite the fact that some did go on to greater things.
• enigmaax

  thereddragin wrote:

  enigmaax wrote: Its a fine line because its cool that anyone can beat anyone on a given night, but it also makes title changes less special when they happen.

  You do realize that these fights are predetermined (sp?) right?

  Oh shit, no really? Thanks for sharing that gem.
• KnightXC1

  

  I don't really think they were trying to sell the IC Champ as the face of the company in the 80's. Certainly Savage, Steamboat, Rude, Warrior (maybe), Perfect, Honky were not at all being pushed as the face of the company while they were the IC Champ. The only real face of the company during the 80's was Hogan and maybe Warrior to a small extent. I do agree the belt was and has been used differently throughout the years. In the 80's and up until the mid to late 90's, it was a very prestigous undercard belt that usually generated very good matches and was a way of testing guys out. I think Ramon was hurt simply because of the other guys around at the time whom they pushed harder (Yoko, Taker, Luger, Hart, HBK, Diesel). He could have been champ easily if they pushed it but never did. Not sure why honestly because he was pretty good in the early to mid 90's. I also agree it has never been a main event title because that was not it's purpose. It was there for the mid card guys to fight for while the big stars were going after the WWF Title.
  
  Since about 2000, it has really just been a place holder for someone they didn't have anything to do with, outside of maybe when Orton had for a long time in 2003-04. But in the 90's it really was a launching pad for a lot of guys and I think certainly was a way to see if they were ready for a bigger push.
• osu45804

  

  I found something pretty interesting about WWE/TNA and didn't feel like starting a new thread.... So WWE's RAW AM which is basically a highlight of the previous RAW shown after midnight the following Saturday, It drew a rating last week of 0.7 which is higher than TNA's LIVE Show this past monday which drew a 0.6... That's pretty sad lol
• mtrulz

  It didn't say anything on wwe.com about this.
• GoChiefs

  

  mtrulz wrote: It didn't say anything on wwe.com about this.

  Well no shit...b/c it hasn't happened yet! The show doesn't air until Friday night.
• MANAZE

  

  ya my bad I should have put spolier in the title I forgot wrestling is real.....
• GoChiefs

  

  MANAZE wrote: ya my bad I should have put spolier in the title I forgot wrestling is real.....

  What does wrestling being real or not have to do with anything? Some people don't want to know what is going to happen..do you want to know what happens at the end of a movie that you've never seen before? I didn't think so.
• MANAZE

  

  well I think this happened at the start........
  
  and by the way who still watches Smackdown anyway? It is probally worst then TNA.
• osu45804

  

  MANAZE wrote: well I think this happened at the start........
  
  and by the way who still watches Smackdown anyway? It is probally worst then TNA.

  You might want to look at ratings... If WWE's RAW AM recap show of RAW can get better raitings than TNA I'm sure Smackdown blows them out of the water as well... I watch Smackdown every week still
• The Equalizer

  

  I don't believe the ratings for raw and impact include the DVR yet which usually comes out closer to the weekend so both will be bumped most likely by at least .5. That said, even a 1.1 for TNA is very disappointing.
• mtrulz

  GoChiefs wrote: What does wrestling being real or not have to do with anything? Some people don't want to know what is going to happen..do you want to know what happens at the end of a movie that you've never seen before? I didn't think so.

  Same goes with Nascar. The association tries their asses off just to get 48 in victory lane. The so-called "fans" know it's the same people every week, it's lame.
• GoChiefs

  

  MANAZE wrote: and by the way who still watches Smackdown anyway? It is probally worst then TNA.

  Obviously, a lot more would if they couldn't just get online and look at the results.
• GoChiefs

  

  mtrulz wrote: Nascar's fake, and very political. The association tries their asses off just to get 48 in victory lane. It's the same people every week it's lame.

  You've shown over and over that you're a retard..and this post is no exception. Do yourself a favor and leave the internet for good. This is a wrestling thread fucktard..not NASCAR. Go stalk elsewhere quier.
• mtrulz

  ^^Come up with your own material.
• GoChiefs

  

  SMH...damn you're a fucking idiot.
• enigmaax

  KnightXC1 wrote: I don't really think they were trying to sell the IC Champ as the face of the company in the 80's. Certainly Savage, Steamboat, Rude, Warrior (maybe), Perfect, Honky were not at all being pushed as the face of the company while they were the IC Champ.

  Again, it goes back to the fact that the IC champ was the headliner on as many cards a year as the World Champ (i.e., Hogan). They were main eventers and counted on to draw a crowd in lieu of having Hogan appear (because he was in another city wrestling).
  
  PPVs weren't nearly as numerous as today and given the separate bookings, the IC belt had to mean something and in that sense, Savage, Steamboat and the like were legitimately a face of the company because they were in places where there was no one bigger.
  
  As PPVs and TV coverage expanded and there was only one tour, the IC champ didn't need to have the same lure. It was important in a different way, but they could move it down the card and use it to elevate people (the 80s title holders had mostly already been established, at least in the territories). But it wasn't always on the #2 guy or a main eventer.
  
  In the 80s, it was basically the equivalent of what we have now with the RAW and Smackdown championships. In the 90s, it was just a second-tier belt.
• darbypitcher22

  

  thanks for the clarification on the IC belt and other low-mid level card belts.... I remember when some of those belts actually used to mean something and had some decent matches... most PPV's back in the late 90's the IC title match was pretty good... I always used to like the Hardcore title matches as well... the Euro belt, now that's a different story, when you have D-Lo Brown, Goldust, Val Venis and others battling for it regularly it loses its luster, and the Light-Heavyweight Belt they had for a while strapped on Taka Michinoku was just retarded
• KnightXC1

  

  enigmaax wrote:
  Again, it goes back to the fact that the IC champ was the headliner on as many cards a year as the World Champ (i.e., Hogan). They were main eventers and counted on to draw a crowd in lieu of having Hogan appear (because he was in another city wrestling).
  
  PPVs weren't nearly as numerous as today and given the separate bookings, the IC belt had to mean something and in that sense, Savage, Steamboat and the like were legitimately a face of the company because they were in places where there was no one bigger.
  
  As PPVs and TV coverage expanded and there was only one tour, the IC champ didn't need to have the same lure. It was important in a different way, but they could move it down the card and use it to elevate people (the 80s title holders had mostly already been established, at least in the territories). But it wasn't always on the #2 guy or a main eventer.
  
  In the 80s, it was basically the equivalent of what we have now with the RAW and Smackdown championships. In the 90s, it was just a second-tier belt.

  Not to continue to be argumentative, but people were not going to wrestling shows in the 80's to see someone like the Honky Tonk Man. Perhaps Steamboat or Savage and at the time, that is a bit of a stretch. Usually, in the mid to late 80's when they split up shows, if Hogan was headlining one, someone like Warrior, Dibiase, or Andre was headlining the other one, not necessarily the IC champ. Don't let one guys book sway your opinion as most wrestlers have tremendous egos. Guys like Steamboat and Honky were never and won't ever be considered the face of the compant at any time, even with Hogan being at a different show. The IC belt was never at the level of the WWF Title. In the 90's it was the second biggest title in the company and most guys said it meant a lot to them to wear that belt. Not that it was more important than the WWF title but was a great honor.
  
  It certainly isn't the same anymore but that belt was a big deal from about 88-99