Somebody Convince Me!

• jmog

  sleeper wrote: So what you are saying essentially is I can kill people and still go to heaven?
  
  What's the point of living a moral life then? Right before I die, I'm going to say "Jesus I believe in you, and I ask for your forgiveness. I really didn't meant to kill 1,000 people, or rape those babies, can I come to heaven?"
  
  Delusional.

  1. Good luck picking a time to do that right before you die.
  2. The confession has to be real, God would obviously know if you truly believed or just giving lip service.
• sleeper

  

  You believers make me laugh, that's all I'm going to say.
• jmog

  sleeper wrote: You believers make me laugh, that's all I'm going to say.

  Lets not forget, sleeper is the smartest person alive, if you don't agree with him he just laughs at you, makes fun of you, etc.
  
  Your arrogance makes me laugh.
  
  You asked for a Biblical answer to your questions, I gave it.
  
  I didn't say you were a moron if you didn't believe in the Bible, I gave an answer to your question based on what the Bible says.
• sleeper

  

  jmog wrote:

  sleeper wrote: You believers make me laugh, that's all I'm going to say.

  Lets not forget, sleeper is the smartest person alive, if you don't agree with him he just laughs at you, makes fun of you, etc.
  
  Your arrogance makes me laugh.
  
  You asked for a Biblical answer to your questions, I gave it.
  
  I didn't say you were a moron if you didn't believe in the Bible, I gave an answer to your question based on what the Bible says.

  Hey JMOG, I believe I've stated MANY FUCKING TIMES that I don't give SHIT about anything in the bible. It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot. I feel sorry for you because you've been so hoodwinked your entire life that you have no idea how liberating it is to finally have realized what a bunch of HOGWASH religion is.
  
  Look up CHILDHOOD INDOCTRINATION, and that's all you need to know.
• jmog

  sleeper wrote:
  
  Hey JMOG, I believe I've stated MANY FUCKING TIMES that I don't give SHIT about anything in the bible. It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot. I feel sorry for you because you've been so hoodwinked your entire life that you have no idea how liberating it is to finally have realized what a bunch of HOGWASH religion is.
  
  Look up CHILDHOOD INDOCTRINATION, and that's all you need to know.

  You don't know jack crap about me or who I am or how I grew up, so can your arrogant attitude.
  
  You asked a question with regards to what the Bible says about who would go to hell and who wouldn't, I gave you the answer.
  
  Don't ask a question if the you can't handle the answer.
  
  Your "ad hominem" logic is actually quite hilarious, keep bringing the "internet tough guy" routine, it makes you look REALLY intelligent.
• NNN

  

  sleeper wrote: Hey JMOG, I believe I've stated MANY FUCKING TIMES that I don't give SHIT about anything in the bible. It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot. I feel sorry for you because you've been so hoodwinked your entire life that you have no idea how liberating it is to finally have realized what a bunch of HOGWASH religion is.
  
  Look up CHILDHOOD INDOCTRINATION, and that's all you need to know.

  Spoken like a truly eloquent genius.
• Upper90

  I have my faith, and I believe what I believe, and that works for me.
  
  I'm not going to argue with anyone about what they DON'T believe, although I do/will respect it.
  
  That just seems counterproductive for me, though.
  
  I will say this, I think religion is a wonderful thing. I'm not Christian, but I think Christianity is a great thing. It's the PEOPLE within the religions that often make me a bit sad.
• NNN

  

  Upper90 wrote: I have my faith, and I believe what I believe, and that works for me.
  
  I'm not going to argue with anyone about what they DON'T believe, although I do/will respect it.
  
  That just seems counterproductive for me, though.
  
  I will say this, I think religion is a wonderful thing. I'm not Christian, but I think Christianity is a great thing. It's the PEOPLE within the religions that often make me a bit sad.

  It reminds me of two quotes.
  
  The first was Mohandas Gandhi, who once said, "I adore their Christ, but I don't like their Christians".
  
  The other was...I don't remember, but it was "Baseball must be a wonderful game to survive the morons who run it".
• tk421

  

  What happened to all those millions of people who died before Christ was sent to Earth? All those countless civilizations before Jesus? If he's the way to heaven, then I assume all those people were sent to hell?
• jmog

  tk421 wrote: What happened to all those millions of people who died before Christ was sent to Earth? All those countless civilizations before Jesus? If he's the way to heaven, then I assume all those people were sent to hell?

  Actually prior to Christ was back when basically (easiest way to understand) if you believed in God and lived a "good" live and followed his laws, you went to heaven without the need of Christ.
  
  Thats about as simplest as I could explain it.
• tk421

  

  jmog wrote:

  tk421 wrote: What happened to all those millions of people who died before Christ was sent to Earth? All those countless civilizations before Jesus? If he's the way to heaven, then I assume all those people were sent to hell?

  Actually prior to Christ was back when basically (easiest way to understand) if you believed in God and lived a "good" live and followed his laws, you went to heaven without the need of Christ.
  
  Thats about as simplest as I could explain it.

  Uh huh, so before Christianity was even invented, people were still going to heaven? Yeah.
• jmog

  tk421 wrote:
  
  Uh huh, so before Christianity was even invented, people were still going to heaven? Yeah.

  I understand that OT prophecies being fulfilled of the Jews coming Messiah is hard to understand for you, but it wasn't that Christianity was "invented" like you are referring.
• slide22

  sleeper wrote:

  jmog wrote:

  sleeper wrote: You believers make me laugh, that's all I'm going to say.

  Lets not forget, sleeper is the smartest person alive, if you don't agree with him he just laughs at you, makes fun of you, etc.
  
  Your arrogance makes me laugh.
  
  You asked for a Biblical answer to your questions, I gave it.
  
  I didn't say you were a moron if you didn't believe in the Bible, I gave an answer to your question based on what the Bible says.

  Hey JMOG, I believe I've stated MANY FUCKING TIMES that I don't give SHIT about anything in the bible. It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot. I feel sorry for you because you've been so hoodwinked your entire life that you have no idea how liberating it is to finally have realized what a bunch of HOGWASH religion is.
  
  Look up CHILDHOOD INDOCTRINATION, and that's all you need to know.

  Dude, I normally tolerate your rants and find them entertaining.. but don't go bashing someone's religion and calling it fiction. There really is no proof in either direction.
• queencitybuckeye

  sleeper wrote: It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot.

  You're entitled to believe or not to believe as you wish, but I find it interesting how many non-believers like to make it a matter of intelligence. There are believers on this board far smarter than you, sir.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  People believed in God before little tiny, 8lb. 6oz., precious, Angelic Baby Jesus laying in a goat manger was born.
  
  "And you can take that to the bank!"
• McFly1955

  

  Haven't read all of these, but:::
  
  If you are not a Christian and/or don't believe in Christianity, what if you are wrong?
  
  If I'm right, I'm going to heaven...sweet. I 100% believe that's where I'm going, but if I'm wrong for some reason, whatever happens to everyone else will just happen to me after I die....
  
  If you're wrong, and my Christian beliefs were correct but you did not choose to believe, then that sucks for you.
• Con_Alma

  People tend to learn most effectively by observation and experience as opposed to being preached to. If the post originator truly wants to be convinced observe and experience.
• fan_from_texas

  This sort of topic comes up pretty regularly, so I'd advise you to save time, dig through the archives, and see what we all thought last time around. I'm always somewhat skeptical of people who post on a message board and ask for proof. Is it an earnest request? If so, I'm happy to oblige. But if you're wanting to stir the pot (which is fine by me, of course), it probably isn't worth the effort.
  
  If you ask complicated questions, you're going to get complicated answers. I've no doubt that if I posted, "Physicists--prove quantum mechanics to me, but don't rely on anything subatomic," I'm certain that I wouldn't get many good answers. That isn't because there isn't a good answer to my question (there is--QM exists), it's because (1) the subject-matter isn't well-suited to informal discourse on a message board; (2) I have no reason to suspect that there are any experts in the field posting here; (3) as a condition of the proof, I've removed something integral to the discussion; and (4) it's flat-out too complicated to be dealt with tritely.
  
  There are many intelligent, well-read people who believe in god. There are similarly many intelligent, well-read people who do not. It isn't blindingly obvious that god exists or doesn't exist, and anyone who presents it to you as stunningly self-evident probably hasn't given it much thought (not that people can't sincerely be firmly convinced--they can, and I respect that, but that doesn't make it obvious to everyone else).
  
  To the best of my knowledge, no one has proffered a consistent, acceptable, logically sound deductive argument for the existence of god. There's a world of difference between a deductive argument that PROVE god's existence, though, and an argument that virtually everyone would accept. We routinely convict people of crimes where there is absolutely no reasonable doubt, but that, by definition, isn't a deductive proof of guilt; it's an evaluation of the relevant facts and picking the conclusion that quite reasonably (and inarguably) lines up with the available theories. Do we think Charles Manson was guilty? Ted Bundy? Jeffery Dahmer? Their guilt couldn't be established by a deductive proof, but that doesn't mean there's no evidence that they were clearly guilty. We can have firm convictions on all sorts of things we can't logically establish by the deductive process.
  
  If you're willing to accept that premise, it isn't too tough to end up with the conclusion that there is a god. In a trial, any individual piece of evidence may have another explanation that is more probable--that is, standing on its own, any one thing would make it less likely that a crime were committed. If I saw someone with a bloody knife, the odds are very good that they didn't just kill someone--most people don't kill people, and there are lots of other good reasons to have a bloody knife. If I knew that someone died, the odds are very good that they weren't murdered--very few people who die are murdered. If I saw someone transfer a big sum of money, it isn't likely that it was fraudulent--lots of big money transfers are made every day, and very few are fraudulent.
  
  But say your rich uncle dies, and someone sees you with a bloody knife, and there's a huge transfer of money to you banjk account right at that time. Individually, each argument for your guilt fails. Collectively, there's a strong presumption that you're guilty, even though it can't be logically deduced, and even though each argument against you is more likely than not false.
  
  That same sort of approach can work with god. There are a number of decent arguments (teleological, argument from design, etc.) that are somewhat less than 50% likely. Taken individually, they each fail. Taken together, they're enough to reach a legal conclusion of no reasonable doubt.
  
  The big question isn't whether god exists, but whether that god is the typical judeo-christian conception. That's a tougher argument to make. I can't do it justice, but if you're sincerely interested, Richard Swinburne has done some very good work on this topic. I'd recommend starting with The Existence of God, then moving on to Faith and Reason. His arguments are much more persuasive than anything I can hope to put together.
• Heretic

  

  CenterBHSFan wrote: People believed in God before little tiny, 8lb. 6oz., precious, Angelic Baby Jesus laying in a goat manger was born.
  
  "And you can take that to the bank!"

  Yep. Thor, Zeus, Ra and Indra were all good chaps. A lot more interesting than the current deities everyone gets so excited discussing.
• Scarlet_Buckeye

  

  fan_from_texas wrote: This sort of topic comes up pretty regularly, so I'd advise you to save time, dig through the archives, and see what we all thought last time around. I'm always somewhat skeptical of people who post on a message board and ask for proof. Is it an earnest request? If so, I'm happy to oblige. But if you're wanting to stir the pot (which is fine by me, of course), it probably isn't worth the effort.
  
  If you ask complicated questions, you're going to get complicated answers. I've no doubt that if I posted, "Physicists--prove quantum mechanics to me, but don't rely on anything subatomic," I'm certain that I wouldn't get many good answers. That isn't because there isn't a good answer to my question (there is--QM exists), it's because (1) the subject-matter isn't well-suited to informal discourse on a message board; (2) I have no reason to suspect that there are any experts in the field posting here; (3) as a condition of the proof, I've removed something integral to the discussion; and (4) it's flat-out too complicated to be dealt with tritely.
  
  There are many intelligent, well-read people who believe in god. There are similarly many intelligent, well-read people who do not. It isn't blindingly obvious that god exists or doesn't exist, and anyone who presents it to you as stunningly self-evident probably hasn't given it much thought (not that people can't sincerely be firmly convinced--they can, and I respect that, but that doesn't make it obvious to everyone else).
  
  To the best of my knowledge, no one has proffered a consistent, acceptable, logically sound deductive argument for the existence of god. There's a world of difference between a deductive argument that PROVE god's existence, though, and an argument that virtually everyone would accept. We routinely convict people of crimes where there is absolutely no reasonable doubt, but that, by definition, isn't a deductive proof of guilt; it's an evaluation of the relevant facts and picking the conclusion that quite reasonably (and inarguably) lines up with the available theories. Do we think Charles Manson was guilty? Ted Bundy? Jeffery Dahmer? Their guilt couldn't be established by a deductive proof, but that doesn't mean there's no evidence that they were clearly guilty. We can have firm convictions on all sorts of things we can't logically establish by the deductive process.
  
  If you're willing to accept that premise, it isn't too tough to end up with the conclusion that there is a god. In a trial, any individual piece of evidence may have another explanation that is more probable--that is, standing on its own, any one thing would make it less likely that a crime were committed. If I saw someone with a bloody knife, the odds are very good that they didn't just kill someone--most people don't kill people, and there are lots of other good reasons to have a bloody knife. If I knew that someone died, the odds are very good that they weren't murdered--very few people who die are murdered. If I saw someone transfer a big sum of money, it isn't likely that it was fraudulent--lots of big money transfers are made every day, and very few are fraudulent.
  
  But say your rich uncle dies, and someone sees you with a bloody knife, and there's a huge transfer of money to you banjk account right at that time. Individually, each argument for your guilt fails. Collectively, there's a strong presumption that you're guilty, even though it can't be logically deduced, and even though each argument against you is more likely than not false.
  
  That same sort of approach can work with god. There are a number of decent arguments (teleological, argument from design, etc.) that are somewhat less than 50% likely. Taken individually, they each fail. Taken together, they're enough to reach a legal conclusion of no reasonable doubt.
  
  The big question isn't whether god exists, but whether that god is the typical judeo-christian conception. That's a tougher argument to make. I can't do it justice, but if you're sincerely interested, Richard Swinburne has done some very good work on this topic. I'd recommend starting with The Existence of God, then moving on to Faith and Reason. His arguments are much more persuasive than anything I can hope to put together.

  very good post. i thank you for sharing
• Websurfinbird

  

  Tinkertrain wrote: That christianity is the right path WITHOUT using bible versus.

  Sorry can't help you there, but if you decide to become one of the CHOSEN people, give me a shout.
• cbus4life

  P.S. i think it is "bible verses," not bible versus.
• Upper90

  I was waiting on someone to point that out.
  
  At first, I was going to make a joke like, "THE BIBLE VERSUS WHO, BRO???? LOLZ!"
  
  But, thankfully I thought better of it.
• buckeyefalls

  sleeper, why the hostility? You need Jesus!
  
  Also, there is no such thing as an atheist.
  

  sleeper wrote:

  jmog wrote:

  sleeper wrote: You believers make me laugh, that's all I'm going to say.

  Lets not forget, sleeper is the smartest person alive, if you don't agree with him he just laughs at you, makes fun of you, etc.
  
  Your arrogance makes me laugh.
  
  You asked for a Biblical answer to your questions, I gave it.
  
  I didn't say you were a moron if you didn't believe in the Bible, I gave an answer to your question based on what the Bible says.

  Hey JMOG, I believe I've stated MANY FUCKING TIMES that I don't give SHIT about anything in the bible. It's a FUCKING work of fiction you dumbass! Do you know what fiction is? Idiot. I feel sorry for you because you've been so hoodwinked your entire life that you have no idea how liberating it is to finally have realized what a bunch of HOGWASH religion is.
  
  Look up CHILDHOOD INDOCTRINATION, and that's all you need to know.

• buckeyefalls

  The Old Testament "from creation to Jesus" allowed people to enter Heaven through the offering of sacrifices for their sins.
  
  As many have posted, topics like this are typically written just to stir the pot.
  
  Faith is what it is, but shame on you (especially you sleeper) for ridiculing ANYONE who has it.
  
  You obviously have faith and do you see us ridiculing you? You have faith that there is no God, no Jesus, no truth in the Bible. It takes a lot more faith to believe all that then it does for me to believe that God doesn't exist.
  
  I take one look at the world around me, my children from conception to their age now, the peace I have in my heart, and more and can't fathom how some choose to reject...but hey, that's your choice.
  
  
  Like I wrote above, there is no such person as an atheist. If you know all there is to know about everything to know 100% for sure that there is NO God, no truth in the Bible, etc. then you yourself must be God.
  
  But by the tone of your hatred, your filthy language, and more, we know that isn't the case.
  
  So possible best case scenerio for you is that you are an agnostic.
  
  Blessings my friend.