Entitlement

• queencitybuckeye

  ccrunner609;866649 wrote:Sure everyone knows the gig going in but dont strap on all the mandates to keep your lisence and then not pay us for it.

  
  Were these mandates in place when you took the job?
• se-alum

  

  queencitybuckeye;866646 wrote:I'm all for fairness, but if that definition is to include not being judged on anything not totally within one's sphere of influence, every job and industry in which I've worked would have to cease evaluating employees immediately.

  
  Exactly, I don't know that there is a single job out there where you are evaluated on only things you have direct control over. In fact, I would estimate that 75% of what I'm evaluated on can be directly influenced by my co-workers.
• derek bomar

  

  GoChiefs;866644 wrote:Bullshit. You knew all that was required when you went into the field. If you don't want to take those required courses and pay for them, then choose another profession.

  
  this. times a billion.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  derek bomar;866637 wrote:fuck teachers. there I said it. lazy sumbitches.

  
  Only if you're a student, on this site anyway.
• wkfan

  queencitybuckeye;866646 wrote:I'm all for fairness, but if that definition is to include not being judged on anything not totally within one's sphere of influence, every job and industry in which I've worked would have to cease evaluating employees immediately.

  I disagree. I have been in the business world for 33+ years and I can truly say that I have never been evaluated on anything that I did not have a majority control over. This is with 6 corporations, sales jobs, non sales jobs, management, non-management, exempt and non-exempt. Each and every one I at least had some influence in whether I met the goal or not.
  
  Evaluating a teacher on student test scores or student or parent evaluations is just nonsense.
• queencitybuckeye

  wkfan;866659 wrote:I disagree. I have been in the business world for 33+ years and I can truly say that I have never been evaluated on anything that I did not have a majority control over. This is with 6 corporations, sales jobs, non sales jobs, management, non-management, exempt and non-exempt. Each and every one I at least had some influence in whether I met the goal or not.

  I'm not sure what on what we would evaluate teachers where they wouldn't have some degree (your words) of influence.
  

  Evaluating a teacher on student test scores or student or parent evaluations is just nonsense.

  Wasn't an idea I presented, but I would say that if your sentence said "solely", I'd agree. Otherwise, why would this profession be exempt from including the opinions of the customer?
• BRF

  

  WTG ccrunner and ETB! Merit pay for teachers will never work. BTW, I hope you two guys have a great school year. And for all you haters, quit "treatin'".
• wkfan

  queencitybuckeye;866668 wrote:I'm not sure what on what we would evaluate teachers where they wouldn't have some degree (your words) of influence.

  .
  
  Have you ever tried to force a student whose parent's did not give him his ADD medicaiton on a testing day to sit and take a test for 60 minutes? I would try it sometime to get an idea of 'degreee of incluence' on the results of said test.
  
  How about a kid who didn't sleep the night before bacause his drunken parent are either partying or arguing?
  
  These are real life examples of my wife's 3rd grade class last year. BTW, we live in a pretty nice suburb of Columbus and she teaches in one of the best districts around.
  
  These kids 'lack of achievement' on their tests (and I'm not just talking about a math or spelling test...I'm talking about the state tests that are analyzed down tot he teacher level) would have a directly negative effect on a teacher's ratings, and therefore their evaluations and pay raise, if the urrent line of thinking by non-educators goes into practice.
  

  queencitybuckeye;866668 wrote:Wasn't an idea I presented, but I would say that if your sentence said "solely", I'd agree. Otherwise, why would this profession be exempt from including the opinions of the customer?

  
  I understand its not your idea...but that is an idea that is out there. You have top understand how emotional (and, therefore irrational) parents get when you tell them their little superstar ain't so super. Show them all of the subjective evidence inthe world and they can find excuse after excuse why its not their little darlings fault...then ask them to evaluate you on how you are doing.
  
  And I'm not going to go to a 3rd grader being asked to evaluate their teacher....
• Sonofanump

  Merit Pay = Who kisses the admins ass the best and who gets the luck of the draw for the best achieving kids. It could also be who has a uncle or aunt on the school board or the BOE. This is a non revenue producing employment, no way to have merit pay without prejudice.
• queencitybuckeye

  wkfan;866681 wrote:.
  
  Have you ever tried to force a student whose parent's did not give him his ADD medicaiton on a testing day to sit and take a test for 60 minutes? I would try it sometime to get an idea of 'degreee of incluence' on the results of said test.
  
  How about a kid who didn't sleep the night before bacause his drunken parent are either partying or arguing?
  
  These are real life examples of my wife's 3rd grade class last year. BTW, we live in a pretty nice suburb of Columbus and she teaches in one of the best districts around.
  
  These kids 'lack of achievement' on their tests (and I'm not just talking about a math or spelling test...I'm talking about the state tests that are analyzed down tot he teacher level) would have a directly negative effect on a teacher's ratings, and therefore their evaluations and pay raise, if the urrent line of thinking by non-educators goes into practice.

  It's interesting that the examples given are always on one end of the curve. It ignores the fact that one could be the absolute worst teacher in the world and there will be a handful of kids who will learn anyway. The outliers exist at both ends of the curve. The average kids taken as a group will respond and learn largely in proportion to the quality of the teacher.
  
  

  I understand its not your idea...but that is an idea that is out there. You have top understand how emotional (and, therefore irrational) parents get when you tell them their little superstar ain't so super. Show them all of the subjective evidence inthe world and they can find excuse after excuse why its not their little darlings fault...then ask them to evaluate you on how you are doing.

  Regardless of the reason, unrealistic customers exist in any and every endeavor. I believe I was fairly realistic when discussing our son's performance with his teachers, and would guess that the majority of parents are at least somewhat objective. Again, no one would suggest that this input would be the sole criteria for evaluation, but to ignore it out of hand makes no sense to me.
• queencitybuckeye

  Sonofanump;866686 wrote:Merit Pay = Who kisses the admins ass the best and who gets the luck of the draw for the best achieving kids. It could also be who has a uncle or aunt on the school board or the BOE. This is a non revenue producing employment, no way to have merit pay without prejudice.

  
  Nonsense. Subjective != prejudice.
• wkfan

  queencitybuckeye;866696 wrote:It's interesting that the examples given are always on one end of the curve. It ignores the fact that one could be the absolute worst teacher in the world and there will be a handful of kids who will learn anyway. The outliers exist at both ends of the curve. The average kids taken as a group will respond and learn largely in proportion to the quality of the teacher.

  Again, studies have shown that the greatest factor is a students (any student) achievement is the involvement of a parent in their education. there is not a teacher inthe world that can have an impact on how much or how little a parent is involved.
  
  I'm not saying that teacher's don't have influence.....I just think you are overstating how much influence, whether it be positive or negative.
  

  queencitybuckeye;866696 wrote:Regardless of the reason, unrealistic customers exist in any and every endeavor. I believe I was fairly realistic when discussing our son's performance with his teachers, and would guess that the majority of parents are at least somewhat objective. Again, no one would suggest that this input would be the sole criteria for evaluation, but to ignore it out of hand makes no sense to me.

  
  You may have been realistic in discussing your child...as was I. My point is that there are MANY who are not as objective and will go to great lengths to 'right' a perceived wrong done to their child. I never said to ignore the input of parents and students, but to take the input of a crazed parent (mama bear) or petulent student is just grossly unfair. I'm not the one making this stuff up....these are the items that have been talked about with regards to teacher evaluation and merit pay much more than any form of subjective evaluation criteria
• fan_from_texas

  queencitybuckeye;866633 wrote:The problem with your argument is that is makes the assumption that your situation is unique. It is not.

  
  Exactly. The onus is on teachers to demonstrate how their profession is unique among virtually all American professions in that there is literally zero way to differentiate between good and bad teachers. This flies in the face of (1) experience in every other industry, and (2) the experience of anyone who ever realized that one teacher was better than another.
  
  If there is virtual unanimity about which teachers are the best, why not pay them more? This shouldn't be a tough concept, but perhaps it's beyond the grasp of the gym teacher here.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  ccrunner609;866740 wrote:and until you stand in my shoes nad see what I see in regards to what makes a good teacher, a gym teacher knows more then you.

  
  It's, "a gym teacher knows more THAN you." Quit embarrassing the teaching profession with your terrible grammar!
  
  And you misspelled "and." It's not "nad."
• queencitybuckeye

  wkfan;866735 wrote: I'm not saying that teacher's don't have influence.....I just think you are overstating how much influence, whether it be positive or negative.

  Wow. If that's the case, I don't know how much it matters how or if teachers are evaluated. I'm not a believer in raises just for putting in another year. In my business, you get a raise for outperforming your current salary. If we're saying their importance is overstated, I see no reason for evaluations or pay adjustments.
• queencitybuckeye

  ernest_t_bass;866764 wrote:It's, "a gym teacher knows more THAN you." Quit embarrassing the teaching profession with your terrible grammar!
  
  And you misspelled "and." It's not "nad."

  
  Thanks for pointing out that it was a misspelling, the last thing I want to see is a gym teacher's nad.
• Glory Days

  

  se-alum;866639 wrote:An administrator should easily be able to evaluate what teachers are putting forth the effort to actually teach students and which ones aren't. In high school, I had a History teacher that lectured 3 or 4 days a week and was very passionate and informative on the subjects. I had a Biology teacher that put notes on an overhead projector every single day, then you had a test after 2 weeks of note taking, there was no lecture, learning activity, or anything like that. Now which of those 2 do you think performed better as a teacher??

  
  neither performed better. so because someone lectures or is passionate makes them a good teacher? homeless guys on the streets can lecture all day long and are passionate about it. for all you know, the students in the class with the overhead teaching may have learned more because things werent handed to them. they had to research more on their own to get things done. not only that, but overhead guy prepared them for college. if the kids are learning the material, who cares about how it is taught.
  

  Sonofanump;866686 wrote:Merit Pay = Who kisses the admins ass the best and who gets the luck of the draw for the best achieving kids. It could also be who has a uncle or aunt on the school board or the BOE. This is a non revenue producing employment, no way to have merit pay without prejudice.

  
  This.
  

  queencitybuckeye;866767 wrote:Wow. If that's the case, I don't know how much it matters how or if teachers are evaluated. I'm not a believer in raises just for putting in another year. In my business, you get a raise for outperforming your current salary. If we're saying their importance is overstated, I see no reason for evaluations or pay adjustments.

  
  and what standards determine if you are outperforming your current salary? selling more? cutting costs? increasing productivity? bringing in more customers/clients?
• BRF

  

  Sonofanump;866686 wrote:Merit Pay = Who kisses the admins ass the best and who gets the luck of the draw for the best achieving kids. It could also be who has a uncle or aunt on the school board or the BOE. This is a non revenue producing employment, no way to have merit pay without prejudice.

  
  And I also say "This"! Nailed it. You people that keep spouting "Merit Pay" have NO PLAN!.....except you just want it.
  
  I knew cc was going to get "treated" on that "then" business. Hang in there, bud. Your Internet dad says, "don't write anything out at school to send him without having someone else proof it!"
  
  QCB: Even though you are a hater, I did laugh at your "nad" comment!
  
  And I loved the "homeless guys can give great lectures on the street" comment!
• GoChiefs

  

  ccrunner609;866649 wrote:Sure everyone knows the gig going in but dont strap on all the mandates to keep your lisence and then not pay us for it.

  
  Well shit, I went to school for Diesel Technology because an Associates Degree was required for the field I wanted in. I guess I should bitch because I have to pay for that schooling then? Cause I sure as hell don't get paid any extra for it even though it was mandated.
  
  P.S...lisence? Really?
• dwccrew

  

  BRF;866817 wrote:And I also say "This"! Nailed it. You people that keep spouting "Merit Pay" have NO PLAN!.....except you just want it.
  
  I knew cc was going to get "treated" on that "then" business. Hang in there, bud. Your Internet dad says, "don't write anything out at school to send him without having someone else proof it!"
  
  QCB: Even though you are a hater, I did laugh at your "nad" comment!
  
  And I loved the "homeless guys can give great lectures on the street" comment!

  
  The homeless guy on the street comment was lame. A homeless guy on the street lecturing isn't getting paid to teach students nor is that homeless person expected to teach anyone.
• WebFire

  Wow. This thread is like deja vu.
• BRF

  

  dwccrew;866829 wrote:The homeless guy on the street comment was lame. A homeless guy on the street lecturing isn't getting paid to teach students nor is that homeless person expected to teach anyone.

  
  But I liked the point and not lame.
  
  Oh God, wait till Believer and Writerbuckeye get ahold of this thread!
• queencitybuckeye

  Glory Days;866769 wrote:and what standards determine if you are outperforming your current salary? selling more? cutting costs? increasing productivity? bringing in more customers/clients?

  
  Depends on the job, it goes without saying. Some are overwhelmingly objective (sales, for example), some (programmers) are fairly objective mixed with a decent amount of opinion, and some (clerical) are nearly completely subjective.
• Def Leopard

  Show up every day and give a damn and you will be evaluated fairly. My daughter had a teacher in the 4th grade that missed 17 days of class. 2 years later he's a building principal. That is the kind of crap that pisses the taxpayers off.
• BRF

  

  ccrunner609;866940 wrote:I missed 19 days a few years ago....oh wait I had heart surgery. One teacher misses some days and you are pissed? Do you even know why?

  
  Yes, my son, because he pays your salary. I was going to respond like you did, but ya beat me to it! Oops, I typed "ya". Is that OK on a message board?