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Militia Accused in Plot to Kill Police

  • Bigred1995
    jhay78 wrote: Three things:

    1. These guys are nutjobs and deserve all the punishment they get.

    2. There's nothing even remotely "Christian" about this militia group, or anyone who justifies murder.

    3. I couldn't help but notice that every newspaper article, internet headline, etc. made sure we all knew that it was a Christian militia group, and a right-wing extremist group.
    By contrast, when the Fort Hood shootings occurred (and actual murders were committed), it took awhile, and the mainstream media was hesitant, to call that shooter a Muslim. Even BHO sprinted to the nearest microphone to make sure we all "didn't jump to any conclusions" or form any prejudices. Even General Gates said it would be "an even greater tragedy if our diversity was affected" by this shooting. That's right- a greater tragedy than 13 (or however many it was) people being killed.

    So yes, the liberal bias comes to the surface again.
    1. I agree with 100%

    2. I wouldn't say "There's nothing even remotely 'Christian' about this militia group" when they essentially use the Bible to justify their beliefs!
    About Us

    HUTAREE; Christian Warrior

    As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.

    We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.

    Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

    Being Hutaree is to stay the Testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.

    We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.

    The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”

    You can find the news we find in some of the places we have in the information sources section. Also you can get gear from some of the choice places we have on gear links. Thanks for coming to Hutaree.com and please come again. Oh and don’t forget that you can write us through the contact us link on the Hutaree homepage. Once again thanks for visiting Hutaree.com and may Christ bless you widely.
    Whether they interpret the verses "correctly" or not is inconsequential, the fact they use the Bible makes it "Christian"! If you use that logic for this group then you must apply the same logic for extremest Muslim groups.
    3. So the news shouldn't report on how the group defines itself and it's mission? In the Texas shooting case, the fact the shooter was Muslim didn't necessarily mean anything, and would only lead people to jump to conclusions, but these nut jobs specifically stated their goals and motives on their website!
  • Writerbuckeye
    The Muslim shooter had a history of radical Muslim statements that were ignored for years.

    There was no conclusion jumping involved.
  • Bigred1995
    Writerbuckeye wrote: The Muslim shooter had a history of radical Muslim statements that were ignored for years.

    There was no conclusion jumping involved.
    So when the story of the Texas shooting first broke, it was widely known this guy made "radical Muslim statements"?
  • Writerbuckeye
    It was known a lot sooner than it was reported.

    The networks dragged their feet for a long time before they even hinted that the guy might be a radical Muslim. If you recall, the first storylines seemed to be focused more on whether he was mentally ill, and basically ignored even the possibility that it might have been a political act and not just some nutcase with a gun.

    Like it or not, there's a built in bias among the cultural elites (like media people) to be extra politically correct in situations like this. That same cautiousness is actually not a bad thing, if it were evenly applied in all reporting.

    Sadly, it's not.
  • jhay78
    Bigred1995 wrote:
    jhay78 wrote: Three things:

    1. These guys are nutjobs and deserve all the punishment they get.

    2. There's nothing even remotely "Christian" about this militia group, or anyone who justifies murder.

    3. I couldn't help but notice that every newspaper article, internet headline, etc. made sure we all knew that it was a Christian militia group, and a right-wing extremist group.
    By contrast, when the Fort Hood shootings occurred (and actual murders were committed), it took awhile, and the mainstream media was hesitant, to call that shooter a Muslim. Even BHO sprinted to the nearest microphone to make sure we all "didn't jump to any conclusions" or form any prejudices. Even General Gates said it would be "an even greater tragedy if our diversity was affected" by this shooting. That's right- a greater tragedy than 13 (or however many it was) people being killed.

    So yes, the liberal bias comes to the surface again.
    1. I agree with 100%

    2. I wouldn't say "There's nothing even remotely 'Christian' about this militia group" when they essentially use the Bible to justify their beliefs!
    About Us

    HUTAREE; Christian Warrior

    As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.

    We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.

    Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

    Being Hutaree is to stay the Testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.

    We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.

    The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”

    You can find the news we find in some of the places we have in the information sources section. Also you can get gear from some of the choice places we have on gear links. Thanks for coming to Hutaree.com and please come again. Oh and don’t forget that you can write us through the contact us link on the Hutaree homepage. Once again thanks for visiting Hutaree.com and may Christ bless you widely.
    Whether they interpret the verses "correctly" or not is inconsequential, the fact they use the Bible makes it "Christian"! If you use that logic for this group then you must apply the same logic for extremest Muslim groups.
    Wrong- using the Bible in any way, shape, or form does not make something or someone "Christian". I'm pretty sure "Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends" doesn't mean go randomly murder a police officer and then deliberately murder others at a funeral. They can attach the label and use the language all they want- it still doesn't make their faith or exercise therof legitimate.

    I'm not a Koranic scholar, but some have argued that extremist Muslim groups are being true to the Koran, while "peaceful" Muslims are the ones not truly practicing their faith.
    3. So the news shouldn't report on how the group defines itself and it's mission? In the Texas shooting case, the fact the shooter was Muslim didn't necessarily mean anything, and would only lead people to jump to conclusions, but these nut jobs specifically stated their goals and motives on their website!
    Here's a conclusion- almost all American blood shed around the world (outside the US) is done by Muslims. The fact he was a Muslim meant a lot, just as it did for the 9/11 hijackers.
  • believer
    jhay78 wrote:Three things:

    1. These guys are nutjobs and deserve all the punishment they get.
    No question here.
    jhay78 wrote:2. There's nothing even remotely "Christian" about this militia group, or anyone who justifies murder.
    Other than the fact that these clowns attempt to hide behind Scripture to justify their paranoia I agree.
    jhay78 wrote:3. I couldn't help but notice that every newspaper article, internet headline, etc. made sure we all knew that it was a Christian militia group, and a right-wing extremist group.
    By contrast, when the Fort Hood shootings occurred (and actual murders were committed), it took awhile, and the mainstream media was hesitant, to call that shooter a Muslim. Even BHO sprinted to the nearest microphone to make sure we all "didn't jump to any conclusions" or form any prejudices. Even General Gates said it would be "an even greater tragedy if our diversity was affected" by this shooting. That's right- a greater tragedy than 13 (or however many it was) people being killed.

    So yes, the liberal bias comes to the surface again.
    PRECISELY my point!

    The left and their allies in the "mainstream" media have had a hard-on for the so-called "religious right" since they helped put the Repubs in control of Congress for the first time in decades in 1994. They will attempt to imply that this small band of idiots is typical behavior in the minds of the ignorant hate-filled narrow-minded homophobic sexist eeeeeeevil Christian-right.

    All I'm saying is let's keep this thing in perspective. Reality checks are always good.
  • Gardens35
    If the government's case is to be believed, this is a truly despicable crime that deserves severe punishment.
  • eersandbeers
    CenterBHSFan wrote:
    BCSbunk wrote: SO now we need to have military trials for them for the sake of logical consistency of all those who are in favor of military trials for terrorists which they most certainly are by even the loosest of definitions.

    I might be in the minority (or not) but I wouldn't have a problem with that. It makes no difference to me if this group targeted civilians or people in any type of public service.

    Also, I'm very glad they caught this group before they accomplished their goal.

    I would hope you are in the minority. As American citizens, they deserve the same rights as all other Americans.

    Scary precedent to set when you start putting Americans in front of military tribunals.
  • eersandbeers
    jhay78 wrote:
    I'm not a Koranic scholar, but some have argued that extremist Muslim groups are being true to the Koran, while "peaceful" Muslims are the ones not truly practicing their faith.

    Which is completely false. The Bible is actually more violent than the Qur'an.
  • Writerbuckeye
    Really? I don't recall ever hearing in Bible school that we were to go out and kill infidels who didn't follow Christian beliefs.
  • eersandbeers
    Writerbuckeye wrote: Really? I don't recall ever hearing in Bible school that we were to go out and kill infidels who didn't follow Christian beliefs.

    Have you ever heard of the OT? You pretty much kill everyone in there, and even though you don't follow that part of the Bible, it is still your holy book.

    Just something else to throw into it also.............


    ""Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

    Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

    Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

    "By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

    It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

    When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

    "In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."

    Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed."

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
  • I Wear Pants
    jhay78 wrote:
    believer wrote: Let's avoid the temptation to equate all conservative Christians as domestic terrorists. Most conservative or evangelical Christians I know are skeptical and wary of interventionist Big Government but love their country.

    But as usual the liberal media's underlying message in this story implies that all conservative Christians are potential terrorists and need special scrutiny.

    That's like saying all Muslims are members of the Taliban and al Qaeda.
    Three things:

    1. These guys are nutjobs and deserve all the punishment they get.

    2. There's nothing even remotely "Christian" about this militia group, or anyone who justifies murder.

    3. I couldn't help but notice that every newspaper article, internet headline, etc. made sure we all knew that it was a Christian militia group, and a right-wing extremist group.
    By contrast, when the Fort Hood shootings occurred (and actual murders were committed), it took awhile, and the mainstream media was hesitant, to call that shooter a Muslim. Even BHO sprinted to the nearest microphone to make sure we all "didn't jump to any conclusions" or form any prejudices. Even General Gates said it would be "an even greater tragedy if our diversity was affected" by this shooting. That's right- a greater tragedy than 13 (or however many it was) people being killed.

    So yes, the liberal bias comes to the surface again.
    But wasn't it a Christian Right Wing group?
  • bman618
    No American should be put in front of a military tribunal. Terrorism can be interrupted very broadly.

    As for this group, they are nuts. I really don't consider them to be much different than the nuts from other religions. Put them on trail and put them away.
  • believer
    bman618 wrote: Put them on trail and put them away.
    Innocent until proved guilty....at least that's the way it used to be in this country.
  • Swamp Fox
    This is why many people look at religion with a jaundiced eye. A group of complete wackos claiming that going out and murdering people is perfectly acceptable because the "anti-Christ" needs to be eliminated?????
    It sounds like a very low grade comic book, but the problem is that these morons are totally serious and they go out and get people with no observable ability to reason, even at the most basic level, to dress up in their cowboy outfits, go to the shooting range, and prepare themselves for Armageddon. Combine that with the probability that their cumulative ACT scores do not crack single digits, and you have a very dangerous situation. I'm in favor of freedom and the Bill of Rights and I sincerely believe that we should protect our individual rights but I wouldn't want any of these folks allowed near a firearm. I wouldn't even want them to have a squirt gun. The really scary part of this for me, is that my wife and I have friends that would concur with this group point for point.
  • fish82
    eersandbeers wrote:
    Writerbuckeye wrote: Really? I don't recall ever hearing in Bible school that we were to go out and kill infidels who didn't follow Christian beliefs.

    Have you ever heard of the OT? You pretty much kill everyone in there, and even though you don't follow that part of the Bible, it is still your holy book.
    Huh?
  • jhay78
    eersandbeers wrote:
    Writerbuckeye wrote: Really? I don't recall ever hearing in Bible school that we were to go out and kill infidels who didn't follow Christian beliefs.

    Have you ever heard of the OT? You pretty much kill everyone in there, and even though you don't follow that part of the Bible, it is still your holy book.

    Just something else to throw into it also.............


    ""Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

    Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

    Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

    "By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

    It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

    When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.

    "In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not."

    Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed."

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
    A historical example from the OT is completely different from the clear teaching from Jesus and the apostles in the NT. The former was a specific instance to be carried out by Israel, the latter is the code of conduct and what is expected of Christians, or those who use the label "Christian".

    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
  • Paladin
    Interesting how the Right always wants to change the subject or confuse the issue rather than face the reality -- right wing christian nutjobs looking to murder policemen and ready for an armed insurrection. Thats the story. Nothing else. And when your side is exposed, fire up the propaganda machine.
  • ptown_trojans_1
    jhay78 wrote:
    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
    As someone who has read, translated portions of the Qur'an, and traveled to Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, I can say, largely it is a peaceful religion.

    It is just the radicals have dominated the rhetoric, sermons and discussions.
  • cbus4life
    jhay78 wrote:
    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
    I would say that Christianity and Islam are pretty much the same, both very peaceful that have been, at times, had their holy books perverted by radicals in order to justify violence.

    If you rationally study the two faiths, using the Bible and Koran as a guide, and supplementing that study with other resources, you'll find both to be largely peaceful, and preach compassion, acting "right," etc.
  • dwccrew
    ptown_trojans_1 wrote:
    CenterBHSFan wrote: I don't get what you guys are saying.

    In fact, I distinctly remember a whole discussion (not topic of a thread) concerning domestic terrorists.

    Did ya'll forget? lol
    Can't speak fro dw, but I was being sarcastic.
    As was I. LOL, people still can't figure out when I am being sarcastic and when I am not?
    Writerbuckeye wrote: Really? I don't recall ever hearing in Bible school that we were to go out and kill infidels who didn't follow Christian beliefs.
    Read C-bus below.
    cbus4life wrote:
    jhay78 wrote:
    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
    I would say that Christianity and Islam are pretty much the same, both very peaceful that have been, at times, had their holy books perverted by radicals in order to justify violence.

    If you rationally study the two faiths, using the Bible and Koran as a guide, and supplementing that study with other resources, you'll find both to be largely peaceful, and preach compassion, acting "right," etc.
    Spot on. People can distort the readings of either book.
  • jhay78
    ptown_trojans_1 wrote:
    jhay78 wrote:
    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
    As someone who has read, translated portions of the Qur'an, and traveled to Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, I can say, largely it is a peaceful religion.

    It is just the radicals have dominated the rhetoric, sermons and discussions.
    I'll agree with that. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that radical Muslims have a far greater influence on world violence than 17 dudes out in the woods in southeastern Michigan.

    Islam may be a largely peaceful religion, but it seems to be more so in countries where they make up a small minority of the population (US, Europe, etc.). In Middle Eastern countries and Indonesia (where they are the overwhelming majority), they're peaceful until you say "Hey dad, I want to become a Christian". Point being, "peaceful" doesn't translate into "religiously tolerant". And in our country, Christianity was the bedrock for the founding fathers' insistence on religious freedom and inalienable rights, neither of which are too common in Muslim countries.

    So Paladin, be thankful that "rightwing Christain nutjobs" founded this country and not Muslims or anyone else.
  • Paladin
    I believe if you take a close look , the country was actually founded by a collection of people, many of whom were atheists ,folks who believed in a god but not a religion and some christians. However , our revisionist friends on the Right always want to make wild claims ( and do often on this board) and want all to know of the "religious" claim for the country. Other than a founding based on "freedom of religion" and a separation of church & state principles , the country was NOT purely founded by christians, but does have its share of right wing christian nutjobs who preach that nonsense yet today. :p
  • I Wear Pants
    jhay78 wrote:
    ptown_trojans_1 wrote:
    jhay78 wrote:
    And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.
    As someone who has read, translated portions of the Qur'an, and traveled to Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, I can say, largely it is a peaceful religion.

    It is just the radicals have dominated the rhetoric, sermons and discussions.
    I'll agree with that. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that radical Muslims have a far greater influence on world violence than 17 dudes out in the woods in southeastern Michigan.

    Islam may be a largely peaceful religion, but it seems to be more so in countries where they make up a small minority of the population (US, Europe, etc.). In Middle Eastern countries and Indonesia (where they are the overwhelming majority), they're peaceful until you say "Hey dad, I want to become a Christian". Point being, "peaceful" doesn't translate into "religiously tolerant". And in our country, Christianity was the bedrock for the founding fathers' insistence on religious freedom and inalienable rights, neither of which are too common in Muslim countries.

    So Paladin, be thankful that "rightwing Christain nutjobs" founded this country and not Muslims or anyone else.
    Have you forgotten the history of Christianity? We're fucking imperialistic assholes man.
  • I Wear Pants
    jhay78 wrote: And spare us the nonsense that Islam is a peaceful religion.[/b]
    But it is?

    Why is it that the wackos who did this are seen as a tiny minority and as such no big deal and not representative of the entirety of the religion/nation but the ones in the mid east are seen as the norm?