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the rich get richer

  • gut
    sleeper;1573442 wrote:I went from making $0 per year to over 6 figures. Upward social mobility is possible if you aren't a dumbass.
    With regard to college, I'd say laziness or lack of focus is a bigger factor. OSU has @80% graduation rate. I think universities are pretty good about selecting students that are capable of doing the work - the majority of students I saw struggling in college simply didn't apply themselves, skipped class regularly, etc...

    I knew people with $200k in debt between undergrad and grad school...they didn't sweat it, went to work for Goldman or McKinsey and paid that off in 2 years.
  • isadore
    gut;1573444 wrote:Huh? I think you have trouble with basic reading comprehension, which would have to be a requirement to believe as you appear to in this thread. You misread or misunderstood a chart I posted 3 times, if not more, even after being corrected multiple times.
    understood the chart and
    gut wrote: Average debt among graduates is $29k and starting salaries was just over $44k.
    228#

    gut wrote:With average starting salaries over $50k, $30k in average debt is really no big deal. For comparison sake, a gross income of $50k would easily qualify you for a $200k mortgage.
    316#
  • gut
    isadore;1573493 wrote:understood the chart and 228#

     316#
    Different sources looking at different angles - I don't make up numbers, starting salaries are higher at more expensive schools where students are likely to incur more debt. Try to educate yourself. You are the perfect example of why taxpayers shouldn't flush their money down the toilet on unworthy students who lack ability..
  • isadore
    gut;1573496 wrote:Different sources and/or different years - I don't make up numbers. Try to educate yourself. You are the perfect example of why taxpayers shouldn't flush their money down the toilet on unworthy students who lack ability..
    you contradict yourself either through sloppiness or dishonesty and I need to educate myself. Yes I need to educate myself not to put any faith in the numbers you use.
  • gut
    isadore;1573503 wrote:you contradict yourself either through sloppiness or dishonesty and I need to educate myself. Yes I need to educate myself not to put any faith in the numbers you use.
    Yes, do some research because it's clear in this thread you didn't have any clue what the relevant numbers were. You do realize salaries vary by major, and typically only the stupid go to an expensive university for a degree that doesn't pay. And someone with $30k in debt to pay back over 10-15 years isn't making the same starting salary that whole time, either they get raises and bonuses.

    A trivial difference in numbers from two different sources that look at the data differently doesn't do anything for your cause, other than you've resorted to mundane and boorish debate tactics. I'm not dishonest, I'm just not ignorant. The point you're attempting to dodge here is that the debt burdens the vast majority of students undertake is absolutely no problem to pay back reasonably quickly.
  • isadore
    gut;1573507 wrote:Yes, do some research because it's clear in this thread you didn't have any clue what the relevant numbers were. You do realize salaries vary by major, and typically only the stupid go to an expensive university for a degree that doesn't pay. And someone with $30k in debt to pay back over 10-15 years isn't making the same starting salary that whole time, either they get raises and bonuses.

    A trivial difference in numbers from two different sources that look at the data differently doesn't do anything for your cause, other than you've resorted to mundane and boorish debate tactics. I'm not dishonest, I'm just not ignorant. The point you're attempting to dodge here is that the debt burdens the vast majority of students undertake is absolutely no problem to pay back reasonably quickly.
    Gosh a ruddies, lets a do a
    Well that 44,000 dollar quote seems pretty close to the average for 2012, but outdated
    But that second quote of yours
    gut wrote: With average starting salaries over $50k, $30k in average debt is really no big deal. For comparison sake, a gross income of $50k would easily qualify you for a $200k mortgage.
    Is just a lie to renforce your argument.
    The average for 2013 was $45,327
    http://naceweb.org/s09042013/salary-survey-average-starting-class-2013.aspx
    So despite your statement above you are either dishonest or ignorant.
    And for many from lower income quintile backgrounds they are either unable to start or finish not because of ignorance or dilatory habits because of finances.
    But as you have shown, your sympathy is for those students from monied backgrounds who have the cash for tuition.
  • Al Bundy
    isadore;1573604 wrote:Gosh a ruddies, lets a do a
    Well that 44,000 dollar quote seems pretty close to the average for 2012, but outdated
    But that second quote of yours

    Is just a lie to renforce your argument.
    The average for 2013 was $45,327
    http://naceweb.org/s09042013/salary-survey-average-starting-class-2013.aspx
    So despite your statement above you are either dishonest or ignorant.
    And for many from lower income quintile backgrounds they are either unable to start or finish not because of ignorance or dilatory habits because of finances.
    But as you have shown, your sympathy is for those students from monied backgrounds who have the cash for tuition.
    If someone starts at $45,000 a year, his/her take home pay will be around $2800 a month. That person can afford to pay a couple hundred a month towards the loan.
  • gut
    Al Bundy;1573614 wrote:If someone starts at $45,000 a year, his/her take home pay will be around $2800 a month. That person can afford to pay a couple hundred a month towards the loan.
    Well Obama just promised to cap payments at 10% of income....so Isadore will not be happy with that if he can figure out the math.
  • gut
    isadore;1573604 wrote:And for many from lower income quintile backgrounds they are either unable to start or finish not because of ignorance or dilatory habits because of finances.
    But as you have shown, your sympathy is for those students from monied backgrounds who have the cash for tuition.
    LOL, whatever. You have made one single remotely compelling point in your favor. All the data is pretty severely against you.
  • isadore
    Al Bundy;1573614 wrote:If someone starts at $45,000 a year, his/her take home pay will be around $2800 a month. That person can afford to pay a couple hundred a month towards the loan.
    try reading the thread more and more poor students have no real chance at an education. Never make it to the point of paying back anything.
  • isadore
    gut;1573616 wrote:Well Obama just promised to cap payments at 10% of income....so Isadore will not be happy with that if he can figure out the math.
    I can figure out the math, unless I listen to your made up numbers. Of course anything for you to protect those with bucks.
  • isadore
    gut;1573619 wrote:LOL, whatever. You have made one single remotely compelling point in your favor. All the data is pretty severely against you.
    No, only you with the screw'em philosophy have your little circle jerk in your echo chamber, but decent people think otherwise
    read and learn
    "College graduation rates have increased sharply for wealthy students but stagnated for low-income students. College graduation rates have increased dramatically over the past few decades, but most of these increases have been achieved by high-income Americans. Figure 7 shows the change in graduation rates for individuals born between 1961 and 1964 and those born between 1979 and 1982. The graduation rates are reported separately for children in each quartile of the income distribution.
    In every income quartile, the proportion graduating from college increased, but the size of that increase varied considerably. While the highest income quartile saw an 18 percentage-point increase in the graduation rate between these birth cohorts, the lowest income quartile saw only a 4 percentage-point increase.
    This graduation-rate gap may have important implications for social mobility and inequality. Given the importance of a college degree in today’s labor market, rising disparities in college completion portend rising disparities in outcomes in the future.

    http://www.brookings.edu/research/re...gher-education#
  • Al Bundy
    isadore;1573642 wrote:try reading the thread more and more poor students have no real chance at an education. Never make it to the point of paying back anything.
    You said they cannot go because of finances. It has been proven to you multiple times that financing is available to those who truly want it.
  • gut
    isadore;1573648 wrote:No, only you with the screw'em philosophy have your little circle jerk in your echo chamber, but decent people think otherwise
    read and learn

    LOL, why do you assume it's lack of money? Stupid poor people have stupid kids who aren't college material.

    There are millions of people who have taken out loans or WORKED a job to put themselves thru college. Lack of money is simply not an excuse. I imagine they would be justifiably insulted by your claim that college s unaffordable.

    Your own dear leader offered to set a limit on debt payments (which would have the perverse effect of limiting how much debt a student can get - he doesn't know economics, either) that is quite a bit higher than the amount you are claiming is oppressive.

    And you still don't get that the problem isn't availability of funds but increasing college costs. All you are offering is to increase the cost of college by passing that cost on to the taxpayer. You don't understand that subsidies equal higher prices, but when you don't know math or finance you have no hope of understanding economics.
  • isadore
    Al Bundy;1573675 wrote:You said they cannot go because of finances. It has been proven to you multiple times that financing is available to those who truly want it.
    because you and a few others say it, does not make it true. The economic condition of many individuals keeps them from using the post secondary system. Studies list above on falling incomes of those in lower income quintiles and what has happened in college enrollment of the poor compared to the rapidly increasing enrollment rates of the richer students.
  • isadore
    gut;1573683 wrote:LOL, why do you assume it's lack of money? Stupid poor people have stupid kids who aren't college material.

    There are millions of people who have taken out loans or WORKED a job to put themselves thru college. Lack of money is simply not an excuse. I imagine they would be justifiably insulted by your claim that college s unaffordable.

    Your own dear leader offered to set a limit on debt payments (which would have the perverse effect of limiting how much debt a student can get - he doesn't know economics, either) that is quite a bit higher than the amount you are claiming is oppressive.

    And you still don't get that the problem isn't availability of funds but increasing college costs. All you are offering is to increase the cost of college by passing that cost on to the taxpayer. You don't understand that subsidies equal higher prices, but when you don't know math or finance you have no hope of understanding economics.
    Of course you would label the poor as stupid. The income of poorer Americans declines.
    The rich, who you favor, increase their share of college enrollment. The inadequate patchwork system of grants and loans deprives millions of young Americans a real chance at upward mobility. You chose not to understand the fact that if we had free post secondary education, cost would keep no student out of the system. But of course your sympathies as previously expressed are for those who can afford to pay for college without even borrowing. Gosh a ruddy they got the bucks, screw the poor.
  • Al Bundy
    isadore;1573690 wrote:because you and a few others say it, does not make it true.
    There are specific examples of students from below average incomes who have graduated college. The examples show that it can be done. Just because many choose not to take that path, does not mean that the opportunity is not there.
  • jmog
    isadore;1573691 wrote:Of course you would label the poor as stupid. The income of poorer Americans declines.
    The rich, who you favor, increase their share of college enrollment. The inadequate patchwork system of grants and loans deprives millions of young Americans a real chance at upward mobility. You chose not to understand the fact that if we had free post secondary education, cost would keep no student out of the system. But of course your sympathies as previously expressed are for those who can afford to pay for college without even borrowing. Gosh a ruddy they got the bucks, screw the poor.
    His label, while not PC, has merit to it.





    On average, the smarter people are, the more money they make. It is a direct, linear relationship.
  • gut
    jmog;1573826 wrote: On average, the smarter people are, the more money they make. It is a direct, linear relationship.
    Yes, and heredity has a significant influence on IQ. Put that together with your chart above, then realizing that successful people (i.e. higher IQ) tend to marry other successful, educated people and you get that smart people tend to have smart children. The corollary, therefore, is...

    The Freakanomics study kind of touches on this. First, they find no correlation between teachers and schools and academic success. Socio-economic factors dominate - well, people with smarter parents tend to be from more affluent households.

    Everyone isn't beautiful, either, but we don't arrange marriages or offer free plastic surgery.
  • gut
    isadore;1573691 wrote:Of course you would label the poor as stupid.
    No, I was referring to stupid poor people, which is a subset of all poor people.
  • sleeper
    It seems like the best solution is to not allow poor people to have children. I'd support free education for all provided poor people were not allowed to reproduce or vote. Problem would solve itself over a few generations.
  • gut
    isadore;1573644 wrote:I can figure out the math....
    If you could do the math, you wouldn't be questioning my numbers.

    So here's a basic finance test for you...what is the remaining principal balance after 36 payments on a $35k loan over 10 years at 5% interest?
  • Al Bundy
    gut;1573878 wrote:If you could do the math, you wouldn't be questioning my numbers.

    So here's a basic finance test for you...what is the remaining principal balance after 36 payments on a $35k loan over 10 years at 5% interest?
    Is the person rich or poor? If he/she is poor that person will get cheated (by whoever it is convenient to blame at that point in time).
  • Footwedge
    "Poor girl wants to marry, a rich girl wants to flirt. A rich man goes to college and a poor man goes to work" --Charlie Daniels. If Charlie says so...well then Isadore must be right.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs4y5si8DGs
  • Al Bundy
    Footwedge;1573931 wrote:"Poor woman wants to marry, a rich woman wants to flirt. A rich man goes to college and a poor man goes to work" --Charlie Daniels. If Charlie says so...well then Isadore must be right.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs4y5si8DGs

    Footwedge, just for entertainment purposes, will you try to do math?