Govt secretly collecting data on millions of VZW users

• SportsAndLady

  

  From Reddit. This is a rebuttal to "Let them spy, I have nothing to hide." It's lengthy, but worth the read. May freak you out a bit.
  

  I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
  Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
  With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
  2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.
  3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
  You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
  4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"
  "Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
  Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
  You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
  This all happened in the country where I live.
  [h=2][/h]You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
  Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
  You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
  Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
  I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.
  I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

• ernest_t_bass

  

  SportsAndLady;1454338 wrote:From Reddit. This is a rebuttal to "Let them spy, I have nothing to hide." It's lengthy, but worth the read. May freak you out a bit.

  
  Any idea of the country to which he is referring?
• ohiobucks1

  

  ernest_t_bass;1454360 wrote:Any idea of the country to which he is referring?

  We can narrow it down. Theres only what, like 10 countries in the Arab Spring?
• SportsAndLady

  

  ernest_t_bass;1454360 wrote:Any idea of the country to which he is referring?

  
  No idea.
• gut

  Again, many people willingly give up a ton of privacy to Google and on the internet. I don't think "privacy", in that regard, is the issue.
  
  But the key difference is, in the hands of the govt that info can be used to target and oppress people. I suspect that was the driving force behind the 4th Amendment.
• Mulva

  

  gut;1454424 wrote:Again, many people willingly give up a ton of privacy to Google and on the internet. I don't think "privacy", in that regard, is the issue. But the key difference is, in the hands of the govt that info can be used to target and oppress people. I suspect that was the driving force behind the 4th Amendment.

  Privacy isn't the only issue, but it's absolutely one of them. If I visit the Google then I accept that they will keep certain logs for a certain period of time, but if I visit my online banking website I don't expect or accept Google to keep logs of that information. A website keeping server logs pertaining to their website is not the same as a website keeping logs on every website you visit. The government keeping records of individuals suspected of terrorism when probable cause has been established is not the same as the government keeping records of every individual because it makes their job easier.
• gut

  Mulva;1454516 wrote:... but if I visit my online banking website I don't expect or accept Google to keep logs of that information.

  I would bet money they do. Not keystroke logs, mind you, but Google knows who you bank with. Their entire model is based on tracking where you go online and how much time you spend there. Especially if you are doing this via mobile Android and not opting out.
• Glory Days

  

  gut;1454530 wrote:I would bet money they do. Not keystroke logs, mind you, but Google knows who you bank with. Their entire model is based on tracking where you go online and how much time you spend there. Especially if you are doing this via mobile Android and not opting out.

  This. Yesterday i bought a father's day gift for my buddy from a website i had never been to before. after the purchase i went directly to facebook and sure enough, there was an ad for the website i was just at.
• Mulva

  

  gut;1454530 wrote:I would bet money they do. Not keystroke logs, mind you, but Google knows who you bank with. Their entire model is based on tracking where you go online and how much time you spend there. Especially if you are doing this via mobile Android and not opting out.

  Google recognizes the cookies on your computer. You can refuse and/or delete them. Google also has a terms of service that explains what information is kept in their server logs and for how long before it's deleted/anonymized.
  
  It isn't secret, they don't deny that it happens, they don't have the ability to combine internet data with phone, banking, medical, etc data, and, as you mentioned above, they don't have the potential to use the information in an oppressive way like the government does. I really don't think it's apples to apples.
• gut

  So why did the leaker come forward? Was he afraid of being "dealt with" quietly?
  
  Now he's looking for asylum somewhere and praying he won't be extradited. You go to The Guardian, presumably to avoid being tracked down via phone records, and then you come forward and admit it?
• gut

  Mulva;1454624 wrote:Google recognizes the cookies on your computer.

  Does a lot more than that. And a lot more than people realize or suspect (nobody reads those agreements).
  
  What's interesting to me is the attitude toward Google (very benign, popular even) vs. Verizon and other companies. Just a "non-political" example of the power of giving people "free" stuff.
• IggyPride00

  

  gut;1454703 wrote:So why did the leaker come forward? Was he afraid of being "dealt with" quietly?
  
  Now he's looking for asylum somewhere and praying he won't be extradited. You go to The Guardian, presumably to avoid being tracked down via phone records, and then you come forward and admit it?

  He is in a hotel room in Hong Kong right now. He said he has only left it 3 times in the past 3 weeks.
  
  The kid has a brass set for sure because he knows the U.S govt will stop at nothing to put him a jail cell for a long ass time.
• gut

  IggyPride00;1454707 wrote: The kid has a brass set for sure because he knows the U.S govt will stop at nothing to put him a jail cell for a long ass time.

  Yep, the administration really goes after "unapproved" leaks...with the same vigor it attacks any opposition.
  
  On the other hand, this is the least shocking "scandal" and arguably worst-kept secret we've seen. And if Obama has one ounce of integrity or morality, he would pardon this guy on his way out of office.
• IggyPride00

  

  Big question now:
  
  Will the Chi-coms extradite this kid back to America to face prosecution?
• Mulva

  

  gut;1454706 wrote:What's interesting to me is the attitude toward Google (very benign, popular even)

  Not among privacy advocates. It's fought much more in Europe than here though, unfortunately.
• majorspark

  

  IggyPride00;1454884 wrote:Big question now:
  
  Will the Chi-coms extradite this kid back to America to face prosecution?

  I would say that would depend on his value to them. He does not strike me as one to divulge national security secrets to foreign governments. I am guessing the Chi-coms turn him over for a small price. This guy could have chosen any location in the world and he chose China. I am sure he did that for a reason. He is privy to a lot more knowledge than you and I so I'd say he has some sort of plan.
• gut

  majorspark;1454929 wrote:I would say that would depend on his value to them. He does not strike me as one to divulge national security secrets to foreign governments. I am guessing the Chi-coms turn him over for a small price. This guy could have chosen any location in the world and he chose China. I am sure he did that for a reason. He is privy to a lot more knowledge than you and I so I'd say he has some sort of plan.

  This might explode this week. I saw two different analysts (I think) say the NSA is both sweating this and trying to figure out what he knew and took, vs. saying he was a low-level administrator that doesn't really know anything. One even used the term "traitor".
  
  Also speculation that The Guardian is sitting on additional details.
  
  The other thing is that the gubmit is already in full circle the wagons mode. You have people some people painting this guy as a low-level peon that really doesn't know anything, to others claiming he's bitter for whatever reason and has an ax to grind. In other words, they are going to attack this guy from all angles and it's only just beginning. All of which begs the question is he really dangerous (from a national security perspective), or is this another example in which we will be subjected to massive spin and a distorted narrative?
  
  Just as an example, it's curious to paint this as a massive security breach while simultaneously saying "well, it's just metadata and major details were left out and it's blown way out of context". Which is it?
• SportsAndLady

  

  Q&A w/ the guy
  

  Q: Does your family know you are planning this?A: "No. My family does not know what is happening … My primary fear is that they will come after my family, my friends, my partner. Anyone I have a relationship with …
  I will have to live with that for the rest of my life. I am not going to be able to communicate with them. They [the authorities] will act aggressively against anyone who has known me. That keeps me up at night."
  Q: Washington-based foreign affairs analyst Steve Clemons said he overheard at the capital's Dulles airport four men discussing an intelligence conference they had just attended. Speaking about the leaks, one of them said, according to Clemons, that both the reporter and leaker should be "disappeared". How do you feel about that?
  A: "Someone responded to the story said 'real spies do not speak like that'. Well, I am a spy and that is how they talk. Whenever we had a debate in the office on how to handle crimes, they do not defend due process – they defend decisive action. They say it is better to kick someone out of a plane than let these people have a day in court. It is an authoritarian mindset in general."
  Q: Do you have a plan in place?
  A: "The only thing I can do is sit here and hope the Hong Kong government does not deport me … My predisposition is to seek asylum in a country with shared values. The nation that most encompasses this is Iceland. They stood up for people over internet freedom. I have no idea what my future is going to be.
  "They could put out an Interpol note. But I don't think I have committed a crime outside the domain of the US. I think it will be clearly shown to be political in nature."

• IggyPride00

  

  The man who stepped forward to say that he leaked this week’s bombshell national security documents is a 29-year-old computer technician who never finished high school and washed out of his Army training.
  
  So how did a guy like that get access to America’s most sensitive secrets?
  [LEFT]
  http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-leak-contractor-92472.html#ixzz2VmYBUF3B
  [/LEFT]

  Nice to know this is the kind of service we get from military contractors.
  
  They bend tax payers over a barrel and we enrich them like no other, and we get them hiring flunkies like this.
  
  This country is so screwed up.
• Glory Days

  

  Mulva;1454624 wrote:Google recognizes the cookies on your computer. You can refuse and/or delete them. Google also has a terms of service that explains what information is kept in their server logs and for how long before it's deleted/anonymized.
  
  It isn't secret, they don't deny that it happens, they don't have the ability to combine internet data with phone, banking, medical, etc data, and, as you mentioned above, they don't have the potential to use the information in an oppressive way like the government does. I really don't think it's apples to apples.

  you should read the fine print a little better. those terms of service also says what they do with their information to include third parties and law enforcement. most big companies are fairly friendly on that level with law enforcement.
• Heretic

  

  SportsAndLady;1454338 wrote:From Reddit. This is a rebuttal to "Let them spy, I have nothing to hide." It's lengthy, but worth the read. May freak you out a bit.

  While I'd hope this country never gets to that stage, I agree that anyone who takes the attitude of "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?" is a pure idiot who deserves anything that happens to them.
• justincredible

  

  Like a boss.
  
  
• gport_tennis

  IggyPride00;1455085 wrote:Nice to know this is the kind of service we get from military contractors.
  
  They bend tax payers over a barrel and we enrich them like no other, and we get them hiring flunkies like this.
  
  This country is so screwed up.

  
  I wouldn't call him a flunkie. He is obviously a very smart and intelligent person. He has a diploma and "washed" out of the military only because he broke his legs
• Mulva

  

  Glory Days;1455123 wrote:you should read the fine print a little better. those terms of service also says what they do with their information to include third parties and law enforcement. most big companies are fairly friendly on that level with law enforcement.

  I'm well aware of that. Google publishes the request data, too. They could do much more to enhance user privacy, but it still isn't an apples to apples comparison with the government.
  
  Google represents google. The American government is supposed to represent the American people.
• gut

  Mulva;1455437 wrote:I'm well aware of that. Google publishes the request data, too. They could do much more to enhance user privacy, but it still isn't an apples to apples comparison with the government.

  It's not apples to apples, but I think the popularity of Google does say quite a bit to just how much people value their privacy.
  
  I maintain it's far, far less an issue of "privacy" than of the govt abusing the information. And I think the major hiccup here is the clandestine nature has caused the tech to race ahead of the protection of rights. The lack of public debate has led to perhaps unintentional trampling of rights.