Economic Collapse is Inevitable

• WebFire

  isadore;1329976 wrote:Gosh a ruddies what do we see over the last three decades? We cut taxes and get ever increasing deficits. Then Clinton raises taxes on the rich and we get a surplus. Then Bush tax cuts plunge us deeper into the whole. But of course the acolytes for the rich and haters of our First African American president will always oppose the taxes needed.

  Yeah, taxes were the only factors. gosh a ruddies :rolleyes:
• isadore

  WebFire;1330036 wrote:Yeah, taxes were the only factors. gosh a ruddies :rolleyes:

  gosh a ruddies what have we seen for the last thirty plus years, cut taxes on rich debt rises, raise taxes on the rich it falls. But of course some people's hearts just bleed for the suffering of the 1%.
• WebFire

  Gosh a ruddies, it's so easy, a caveman can do it!
• pmoney25

  

  I say go ahead and raise taxes. The quicker we get this myth over with the better.
• pmoney25

  

  isadore;1330045 wrote:gosh a ruddies what have we seen for the last thirty plus years, cut taxes on rich debt rises, raise taxes on the rich it falls. But of course some people's hearts just bleed for the suffering of the 1%.

  Clinton did cut taxes on the rich who made money on capital gains. Bush just followed his lead.
• isadore

  WebFire;1330049 wrote:Gosh a ruddies, it's so easy, a caveman can do it!

  no, the United States Congress using its powers based on Article I and the 16th Amendment can do it.
• isadore

  pmoney25;1330052 wrote:Clinton did cut taxes on the rich who made money on capital gains. Bush just followed his lead.

  Gosh a ruddies, Clinton raised income tax on the top two brackets personal tax income went from
  509 billion in 1993 to 994 billion in 2001
  http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=203
  
• pmoney25

  

  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Relief_Act_of_1997
  
  Lowered rate from 15% to 10% and 28% to 20% for highest bracket. Most super rich people don't get money from income but investments. So Clinton obviously helping out the 1%
• isadore

  the personal income tax rates were up on the rich
• pmoney25

  

  isadore;1330098 wrote:the personal income tax rates were up on the rich

  Yes but he gave that back with capital gains. Especially during the dot com boom giving people a break on their investments. Just proves democrats are friends of the 1% also.
• isadore

  what we see is the doubling of tax revenue because of the raise in tax rates on the rich.
• gut

  isadore;1330117 wrote:what we see is the doubling of tax revenue because of the raise in tax rates on the rich.

  No, that's the result of economic growth, which is truly the only way to raise revenues.
  
  Taxes are not the main driver behind the debt. Spending is. One has to be a moron not to see that.
• isadore

  gosh a ruddies
  1945-1981 high tax rates on the rich and the tax revenue generated to keep the national debt consistently decreasing as a percentage of the the gdp.
  then the reagan and bush tax cuts, tax cuts for the rich, slow the growth or even shrink tax revenue and the debt as as percentage of gdp grows meteorically.
• gut

  Spending increases have far outpaced GDP growth. You're not seeing the whole picture. We have a spending problem - historically we've collected right @18.2% of GDP. Obama proposing 25% of GDP spending into perpetuity is a permanent $1T+ shortfall. There is no way to get there without increase FICA and implmenting a VAT - steep taxes on the poor and middle class.
  
  The problem isn't that rich people don't pay enough taxes, it's that we don't have enough rich people.
• isadore

  gut;1330304 wrote:Spending increases have far outpaced GDP growth. You're not seeing the whole picture. We have a spending problem - historically we've collected right @18.2% of GDP. Obama proposing 25% of GDP spending into perpetuity is a permanent $1T+ shortfall. There is no way to get there without increase FICA and implmenting a VAT - steep taxes on the poor and middle class.
  
  The problem isn't that rich people don't pay enough taxes, it's that we don't have enough rich people.

  tax cuts to the rich have pushed us into this hole. how about we
  increase personal income tax on top brackets, tax capital gains at same rate as personal income tax,
  and for social security end the ceiling on collecting fica taxes on income. gosh a ruddies now there is a start.
• gut

  isadore;1330316 wrote:tax cuts to the rich have pushed us into this hole. how about we
  increase personal income tax on top brackets, tax capital gains at same rate as personal income tax,
  and for social security end the ceiling on collecting fica taxes on income. gosh a ruddies now there is a start.

  A). They've done and tried just about everything with personal income taxes. Yet they still pretty consistently collect only about 18.2% of GDP. The reason is you can't force people to realize deferred income. The reason Bush's cut on the capital gains to 15% generated a shit ton of revenue was because wealthy people started taking money out of their company that was just sitting in retained earnings - those distributions and dividends skyrocketed.
  
  B) Social insurance is supposed to mean everyone pays. The reason for the cap is because that far exceeds what would be returned under the system. No, the solution is to increase the FICA rate - Europe's equivalent is a full 50% higher than we pay here. The reason Medicare is in so much trouble is because the expense is actually greater than SS, but if you look at FICA we only collect 1/5 the amount for Medicare that we do for SS.
  
  You can't tax your way out of spending problem. We've been proving that for nearly 30 years. Perhaps the solution is LOWER rates and elimination of loopholes (i.e. simpler) and make it permanent. If you eliminate the potential for future tax increases, as well as cuts, then you remove the incentive to game things by deferring income. That is basically the cyclical nature of how things have been working and why tax cuts work in the first place - increase taxes for a bit, and the deferred builds up so then you lower taxes to untrap those revenues. Wash, rinse and repeat.
• isadore

  gut;1330343 wrote:A). They've done and tried just about everything with personal income taxes. Yet they still pretty consistently collect only about 18.2% of GDP. The reason is you can't force people to realize deferred income. The reason Bush's cut on the capital gains to 15% generated a **** ton of revenue was because wealthy people started taking money out of their company that was just sitting in retained earnings - those distributions and dividends skyrocketed.
  
  B) Social insurance is supposed to mean everyone pays. The reason for the cap is because that far exceeds what would be returned under the system. No, the solution is to increase the FICA rate - Europe's equivalent is a full 50% higher than we pay here. The reason Medicare is in so much trouble is because the expense is actually greater than SS, but if you look at FICA we only collect 1/5 the amount for Medicare that we do for SS.
  
  You can't tax your way out of spending problem. We've been proving that for nearly 30 years. Perhaps the solution is LOWER rates and elimination of loopholes (i.e. simpler) and make it permanent. If you eliminate the potential for future tax increases, as well as cuts, then you remove the incentive to game things by deferring income. That is basically the cyclical nature of how things have been working and why tax cuts work in the first place - increase taxes for a bit, and the deferred builds up so then you lower taxes to untrap those revenues. Wash, rinse and repeat.

  What a joke that capital gains tax rate is a temporary pumpas the greedy rich jump on it then a sharp decline because of the lowrates. Keep them permanently at the samerate as personal income tax and they won’t be playing the system. http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-capital-gains-tax-collections-1954-2009
  And keeping a high tax rate on the rich did a great job ofdecreasing our national debt from 1945-1981. Gosh we even fought two wars during that time and still reduced thenational debt. If the rates staypermanently high that stops the rich from dodging for a better deal.
  And obviously increased collection of FICA tax could byending the income ceiling would put the system on firmer financial ground. And the rich would be entitled to the samebenefits as us lesser folk.
  

  gut wrote: You can't tax your way out of spending problem.We've been proving that for nearly 30 years

  
  Really the problem the last 30 years is the exactopposite. We cut taxes and the problemgets worse. Thirty years ago when Reagan was elected national debt was 1/3gdp. Then we started cutting taxes forthe rich and now we see the result.
  
• gut

  isadore;1330462 wrote:What a joke that capital gains tax rate is a temporary pumpas the greedy rich jump on it then a sharp decline because of the lowrates.
  
  . Thirty years ago when Reagan was elected national debt was 1/3gdp. Then we started cutting taxes forthe rich and now we see the result.

  You are just so very, very ignorant. We have a spending problem. Like I said, go take a look at how spending has grown relative to GDP - revenues have been fairly flat @ 18.2% (read: revenues have kept pace with GDP growth). Spending is what has gotten out of control.
  
  As for capital gains, you need to learn and understand what double and triple taxation means. Those cap gains are already taxed up to 35% at the corporate level, plus that investment was already taxed once when it was originally earned as ordinary income. The real implicit rate of taxation on capital gains is north of 50%. When you punish the rate of return on investment, you slaughter growth and that will only further hurt revenues.
  
  Social insurance means everyone contributes. Everyone. We have expanded and added social insurance programs and failed at sticking the rich with the bill (which isn't a realistic or practical goal, anyway).
• tk421

  

  there's no reason to try and argue with him, he won't accept the truth. Obama can do no wrong and there isn't a problem. People like that will not ever accept the truth, no matter how many facts you present. You're wasting your breath.
• isadore

  gut;1330571 wrote:You are just so very, very ignorant. We have a spending problem. Like I said, go take a look at how spending has grown relative to GDP - revenues have been fairly flat @ 18.2% (read: revenues have kept pace with GDP growth). Spending is what has gotten out of control.
  
  As for capital gains, you need to learn and understand what double and triple taxation means. Those cap gains are already taxed up to 35% at the corporate level, plus that investment was already taxed once when it was originally earned as ordinary income. The real implicit rate of taxation on capital gains is north of 50%. When you punish the rate of return on investment, you slaughter growth and that will only further hurt revenues.
  
  Social insurance means everyone contributes. Everyone. We have expanded and added social insurance programs and failed at sticking the rich with the bill (which isn't a realistic or practical goal, anyway).

  Our problem is with taxing not spending. Obviously we need to produce more revenuethrough taxation. As the graphs show eachtime we cut taxes for the rich revenue failed to grow at the pre cutrates. We fell deeper and deeper in debtbecause of those decisions that served corporations and the rich at the rest ofus.
  Double taxation is baloney. The corporation, an independent economic entity, is taxed as it shouldbe for the economic advantages granted it. Then dividends are paid to individuals and capital gains are made onstock prices for individuals. Thosegains should not be sacrosanct, they are just like any other income toindividuals and should be taxed at the same rate.
  As to Social Security and Medicare they are servicesprovided by the government like national defense. We do not set a special rate for the rich ontheir payments for national defense, there is no ceiling. They pay and get the same defense as the restof us. That is how it should be forsocial security and medicare. If it was,our financial problems with those services would disappear.
  
• isadore

  tk421;1330593 wrote:there's no reason to try and argue with him, he won't accept the truth. Obama can do no wrong and there isn't a problem. People like that will not ever accept the truth, no matter how many facts you present. You're wasting your breath.

  gosh there is a problem, the rich are not paying their share. tax cuts to them have produced our debt. hopefully our first African American President can solve the problem by pushing for higher taxes on the rich.
• WebFire

  isadore;1330604 wrote:Our problem is with taxing not spending.

  Yeah, there is no problem at all with spending. LOL :rolleyes:
• gut

  WebFire;1330670 wrote:Yeah, there is no problem at all with spending. LOL :rolleyes:

  Which is why the Repubs should give Obama his lame tax increases and then with the economy still in the shitter and $1T+ deficits drop the hammer with the "told you so".
  
  When Obama tries to pretend a $100-200B tax increase on the rich will make much of a dent in the deficit I want to say "how stupid does Obama think people are?" But, of course, Obama doesn't think people are stupid he knows it. Hell, it had to be true or he never would have gotten re-elected.
• isadore

  gut;1330679 wrote:Which is why the Repubs should give Obama his lame tax increases and then with the economy still in the ****ter and $1T+ deficits drop the hammer with the "told you so".
  
  When Obama tries to pretend a $100-200B tax increase on the rich will make much of a dent in the deficit I want to say "how stupid does Obama think people are?" But, of course, Obama doesn't think people are stupid he knows it. Hell, it had to be true or he never would have gotten re-elected.

  gosh according to you the American people must be stupid for re electing our first African American President. obviously the majority of American voters in the past election are wiser than you. They appreciate the president's successful efforts to decimate al queada leadership, overcome Bush mismanagement of 2 wars, save the American auto industry and turn our economy around. And that is why he was reelected despite your efforts.
• believer

  

  gut;1330679 wrote:But, of course, Obama doesn't think people are stupid he knows it.

  Our first African-Amerikan prez is a pretty smart guy.
  

  gut;1330679 wrote:Hell, it had to be true or he never would have gotten re-elected.

  Our first African-Amerikan prez is a pretty smart guy.