Palestine/Israel Conflict

• ThePatriot

  So I admittedly don't know much about the history of the conflict but I did a little reading on the topic last night as things are once again heating up in the region. Hillary Clinton is heading over to meet with leaders from both Israel and Palestine, though the Palestinian leader has little influence over Hamas.
  
  Now, I know America has historically supported Israel, has sympathized with them and continues to provide their aid but obviously both sides make what I think are legit claims against one another and neither are completely innocent here. But what are your thoughts on the conflict, who do you side with and why? What needs to happen to resolve the fighting or is it impossible? Should we just stay the hell out of it?
• ohiobucks1

  

  Impossible to solve the fighting.
  
  One needs to be gone before either will stop fighting...
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  No one but the Israelis and the Palestinians can solve the problem, and neither one actually want to solve it.
  Both are somewhat satisfied with the status quo as sad as it is.
  And no one, not even the U.S., can try and solve it.
  
  The issue will gradually get worse until both sides agree to sit down and has it out. I doubt that happens anytime soon.
• sleeper

  

  It'll never end. I personally don't mind it because it's killing people of faith who would rather be with god anyway.
• FatHobbit

  

  ccrunner609;1326665 wrote:The problem is when other countries go in and draw new bounderies....someone is gonna be butt hurt.

  This is true. The boundaries are completely made up with no regard for the makeup and beliefs of the people who live there.
• jhay78

  

  Actually most of the "boundaries" were given back by the Israelis in good faith, as gestures of peace and friendship, despite having gained several territories during the Six Day War (1967). Menachem Begin gave back the Sinai to Egypt at Camp David (mediated by Jimmy Carter), Yitzhak Rabin left the West Bank, and the Israelis left Gaza completely in 2005.
  
  Those gestures have been met with the grateful response of lots and lots of rockets aimed at civilian population centers. No one is saying the Israelis are completely without fault, but I don't see how a ground war is avoidable given the current trajectory.
• jmog

  jhay78;1331538 wrote:Actually most of the "boundaries" were given back by the Israelis in good faith, as gestures of peace and friendship, despite having gained several territories during the Six Day War (1967). Menachem Begin gave back the Sinai to Egypt at Camp David (mediated by Jimmy Carter), Yitzhak Rabin left the West Bank, and the Israelis left Gaza completely in 2005.
  
  Those gestures have been met with the grateful response of lots and lots of rockets aimed at civilian population centers. No one is saying the Israelis are completely without fault, but I don't see how a ground war is avoidable given the current trajectory.

  Please don't bring facts into this discussion, people's heads will explode.
• believer

  

  jmog;1331554 wrote:Please don't bring facts into this discussion, people's heads will explode.

  True because the Israelis are eeeevil much like rich Republicans.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  jhay78;1331538 wrote:Actually most of the "boundaries" were given back by the Israelis in good faith, as gestures of peace and friendship, despite having gained several territories during the Six Day War (1967). Menachem Begin gave back the Sinai to Egypt at Camp David (mediated by Jimmy Carter), Yitzhak Rabin left the West Bank, and the Israelis left Gaza completely in 2005.
  
  Those gestures have been met with the grateful response of lots and lots of rockets aimed at civilian population centers. No one is saying the Israelis are completely without fault, but I don't see how a ground war is avoidable given the current trajectory.

  Ehh, I wouldn't say they left the West Bank. The Israelis have pushed a lot of settlements the last 20 years gradually making more and more of the land Israeli. This makes any division more and more complex.
  But yeah, the Israelis over the last 30 years have given back a lot of the land.
  
  There is also the whole issue of the Golan.
  I still say neither side really wants peace.
  
  But, to the general point, yeah most of the lines were drawn for the region in 1920 by the Brits and Frenchies.
• majorspark

  

  Israel should have just went in and removed Hamas from power in Gaza. But the west drops its nuts once again and pressures them into holding back. Hamas and Fatah (the moderate faction) fought a brief civil war in Gaza. Hamas won and drove them from Gaza. Now Hamas rules the people of Gaza with an iron fist. Their stated goal is to remove the "Zionists" from their perceived land.
  
  One can't make a lasting peace with another party of that party vows your destruction? This latest flare up is nothing more than Hamas feeling out the Israels tactics, capabilities, and will. Cease fire equals a time out when your ass is getting beat. Then claim victory. Adjust tactics and smuggle in better weapons to meet long term goals. Learn, adjust, to fight more effectively another day.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  majorspark;1331819 wrote:Israel should have just went in and removed Hamas from power in Gaza. But the west drops its nuts once again and pressures them into holding back. Hamas and Fatah (the moderate faction) fought a brief civil war in Gaza. Hamas won and drove them from Gaza. Now Hamas rules the people of Gaza with an iron fist. Their stated goal is to remove the "Zionists" from their perceived land.
  
  One can't make a lasting peace with another party of that party vows your destruction? This latest flare up is nothing more than Hamas feeling out the Israels tactics, capabilities, and will. Cease fire equals a time out when your ass is getting beat. Then claim victory. Adjust tactics and smuggle in better weapons to meet long term goals. Learn, adjust, to fight more effectively another day.

  There is no way Israel can remove Hamas without killing hundreds of civilians. In today's world, that is impossible.
  Plus, Hamas learned from Hezbollah is the 2006 Lebanese war. Israel still has an advantage, but it is not as wide as before.
• majorspark

  

  ptown_trojans_1;1331901 wrote:There is no way Israel can remove Hamas without killing hundreds of civilians. In today's world, that is impossible.

  I agree. But hundreds of civilians will be killed spanning the next several upcoming flare ups. I guess its just easier for the west to have them spread out over years than all in a few weeks. I know no one wants to give Hamas the reals of propaganda video they want but Hamas has to be removed from equation.
  

  ptown_trojans_1;1331901 wrote:Plus, Hamas learned from Hezbollah is the 2006 Lebanese war. Israel still has an advantage, but it is not as wide as before.

  That was my point. Learn, adjust, fight more effectively another day. Hamas will do so. Israel better squash the southern launch pad post haste or they will at some point be receiving salvos from both ends.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  majorspark;1332048 wrote:I agree. But hundreds of civilians will be killed spanning the next several upcoming flare ups. I guess its just easier for the west to have them spread out over years than all in a few weeks. I know no one wants to give Hamas the reals of propaganda video they want but Hamas has to be removed from equation.
  
  
  
  That was my point. Learn, adjust, fight more effectively another day. Hamas will do so. Israel better squash the southern launch pad post haste or they will at some point be receiving salvos from both ends.

  I agree with your premise, but just saying it is not realistic or geopoliticaly feasible.
  The cycle of violence is just the way of life.
• stlouiedipalma

  How much of this latest flare-up is being played by Iran? We all know they are sending the rockets being fired at Israel. Perhaps a little provocation to take Israel's mind off their nuclear effort?
• isadore

  for Iran it serves to take Arab attention away from their efforts to prop up the Assad dictatorship in Syria. They get to be seen as supporting people seen as freedom fighters by Arabs as opposed to supplying Alawite killers of Sunni Arabs. Their revolutionary guard is actively involved in the killing.
• Cleveland Buck

  

  Since it doesn't affect the United States one bit, maybe we should mind our own business and let them figure it out for themselves.
• HitsRus

  

  Israel and the U.S. lose support and then lose key UN vote on Palestinian statehood.
  http://blogs.cfr.org/patrick/2012/11/29/israel-loses-european-support-on-palestinian-statehood/
• derek bomar

  

  HitsRus;1333350 wrote:Israel and the U.S. lose support and then lose key UN vote on Palestinian statehood.
  http://blogs.cfr.org/patrick/2012/11/29/israel-loses-european-support-on-palestinian-statehood/

  good
• Footwedge

  Cleveland Buck;1332782 wrote:Since it doesn't affect the United States one bit, maybe we should mind our own business and let them figure it out for themselves.

  No...we need to dominate the world and make sure everyone knows you don't fuck with the United States. We built this global empire through decades of excruciatingly hard hard by a collection of silver tongued chickenhawks.
  
  We spend 1.1 trillion a year on defense related thingies to ensure that we maintain our global hegemon. We emulate the Romans of yesteryear....who proved how wonderful global dominance truly is...especially given the fact that our country just rolls around in money surpluses.
  
  Our latest innovative war toys include kamakazi planes without the pilots. How cool is that? With these unmanned missiles, we can kill 40 civilians for every bad guy we get.....and the best part is that the mainstream media never criticizes us for the daily war criminality.
  
  It's a win, win baby.
• Raw Dawgin' it

  

  Israel is grossly overreacting to the rocket attacks. How many people have the rockets actually killed compared to Israel attacking back? It seems more like rebelling against a country than it does attacking them and starting a war. Violence won't solve anything and I don't agree with the amount of Israel retaliation.
• Raw Dawgin' it

  

  Footwedge;1333457 wrote:No...we need to dominate the world and make sure everyone knows you don't fuck with the United States. We built this global empire through decades of excruciatingly hard hard by a collection of silver tongued chickenhawks.
  
  We spend 1.1 trillion a year on defense related thingies to ensure that we maintain our global hegemon. We emulate the Romans of yesteryear....who proved how wonderful global dominance truly is...especially given the fact that our country just rolls around in money surpluses.
  
  Our latest innovative war toys include kamakazi planes without the pilots. How cool is that? With these unmanned missiles, we can kill 40 civilians for every bad guy we get.....and the best part is that the mainstream media never criticizes us for the daily war criminality.
  
  It's a win, win baby.

  You can leave this country, no one will miss you.
• jhay78

  

  Raw Dawgin' it;1333653 wrote:Israel is grossly overreacting to the rocket attacks. How many people have the rockets actually killed compared to Israel attacking back? It seems more like rebelling against a country than it does attacking them and starting a war. Violence won't solve anything and I don't agree with the amount of Israel retaliation.

  I don't know of too many sovereign nations that would sit back and let their neighbors launch rocket after rocket without some sort of retaliation. We can criticize the Israeli response in terms of lives lost, but 1) their defenses are a little more sophisticated to protect against loss of life from rockets, and 2) many rockets from Gaza are being launched from traditional military locations such as school playgrounds and mosque parking lots.
  
  I agree the launching of rockets seems more like poking a stick trying to start something bigger, rather than a threat to Israel's survival. Doesn't mean it should be ignored, however. Sometimes violence can solve things, like it did in '67.
• Classyposter58

  

  :laugh:When they created Israel in 1948 I bet the UN thought who cares if we give the Jews a little piece of the desert. 65 years later...
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  HitsRus;1333350 wrote:Israel and the U.S. lose support and then lose key UN vote on Palestinian statehood.
  http://blogs.cfr.org/patrick/2012/11/29/israel-loses-european-support-on-palestinian-statehood/

  The impact of the vote will be interesting to see. Could be more symbolic than anything, or could be used to reinforce the Pal position.
  
  And of course, as a result of this, the Israelis approve new settlements in the West Bank, near Jerusalem.
  The cycle continues.
• Footwedge

  Raw Dawgin' it;1333654 wrote:You can leave this country, no one will miss you.

  Millions upon millions of Americans view our ridiculous foreign policy the same way as I do. Our economic woes, exposure to terrorism, and the hatred towards our country abroad is specifically and directly related towards our global governance, dominance and occupation.
  
  The typical "leave the country" comment is pretty childish. Typical of someone that obviously can't debate the subject.