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The Corollary of Art Modell's move and American Job Outsourcing Overseas

  • Footwedge
    gut;1265254 wrote:Look Foot, it's no a difficult question. I'm not interested in books you claim to have read and not understood. I'm interest in your answer to a simple question.

    How many jobs have been outsourced? Either you don't know the answer, or you don't like the answer you found.

    I'll provide multiple links on people working for foreign companies in the US when you can tell us how many jobs have been outsourced. Nice duck and dodge, though. I'm sure if my 5M+ number was wrong the outsourcing guru would have already provided links showing that.
    Here are more questions...and one statement.
    From above...

    I never saw pro globalization on a ballot. Is Pat Buchanan a union guy? What about Paul C. Roberts, Reagan's economic advisor and former editor for the WSJ? Not to mention conservative pundit Lou Dobbs...a guy who can't stand unions....and one who has written a book on the subject.



    You want me to address your one question, (which I already have) but you won't reply to any of mine. There is no debating those that are uneducated on a subject. Read a goddam book on the subject...instead of spewing the corporate nonsense line that globalization is a net win for America. Because it isn't. For you to say that it is a remarkable feat even for you...for anyone for that matter. Now answer my questions. Football starts pretty soon...don't have much more time to piss away. Go.
  • Footwedge
    Con_Alma;1265172 wrote:I have never brought up going "belly Up" anywhere. You might wish I had said or even inferred that they were going "belly up" but you won't find it in my posts anywhere.

    .
    You said this.

    "Not only is he able to but he should if there's a greater opportunity. It's the reason his business exists."

    I took you for your spoken/written word. To me...that which is bolded tells me that you think his business would have folded. And I'm saying, based on the history of NFL franchises and their failure rate....which has been zero...that you are dead wrong.

    Art Modell moved his team for the exact same reason Corporate America, who collectively own the government
    , offshored America's aggregate wealth. They did so by embracing labor laws that were denounced by our democracy some 110 years ago.
  • gut
    No, Foot, you haven't answered the question at all. Saying you did doesn't make it so.

    How many jobs have been outsourced? Either you don't know or don't like the answer you found.
  • Con_Alma
    Footwedge;1265255 wrote:So maybe you could celebrate the life of Arthur B at the stadium today and give him a much deserved moment of silence....maybe crown him executive of the year for 1995....and perhaps offer your insight to those that surround you there on the business acumen of said Arthur B. Good luck with that.
    Why would I do that?

    I can answer your maybe for you. No I wouldn't.

    Mr. Modell was nothing more than an owner of an entertainment business. I don't know what his business acumen was. I only spoke of his right to carry out the decisions he made along with the right's of the "fans" be upset by them. Nothing more.
  • Con_Alma
    Footwedge;1265260 wrote:You said this.

    "Not only is he able to but he should if there's a greater opportunity. It's the reason his business exists."

    I took you for your spoken/written word. To me...that which is bolded tells me that you think his business would have folded. And I'm saying, based on the history of NFL franchises and their failure rate....which has been zero...that you are dead wrong.

    Art Modell moved his team for the exact same reason Corporate America, who collectively own the government
    , offshored America's aggregate wealth. They did so by embracing labor laws that were denounced by our democracy some 110 years ago.
    That may be your interpretation but the words are clear and are not inclusive of his business folding. I'll rephrase it for you.

    His business exists to increase shareholder equity and if there's opportunity to do so elsewhere he should. That doesn't mean his business would fold if he doesn't seek out opportunity elsewhere.

    Having zero rate of businesses folding does not mean that all NFL franchises are of equal value. It's not about folding or not. It's about increasing/maximizing value and opportunity.
  • Terry_Tate
    Footwedge;1265255 wrote:So maybe you could celebrate the life of Arthur B at the stadium today and give him a much deserved moment of silence....maybe crown him executive of the year for 1995....and perhaps offer your insight to those that surround you there on the business acumen of said Arthur B. Good luck with that.

    LOL. Just because people with emotion and absolutely 0 ownership interest disagree doesn't make it wrong. That's laughable.
  • Terry_Tate
    gut;1265241 wrote:5M+ people work for foreign companies here in the US. How many jobs have we lost to outsourcing?

    I wonder why it is you continue to duck and dodge the question and set-up strawmen to argue against. For someone who claims not to be a liberal, you sure love to regurgitate their propaganda.

    The closest number I found with a simple Google search was 2.9 million. Is that close?
  • Al Bundy
    Footwedge;1265260 wrote:
    And I'm saying, based on the history of NFL franchises and their failure rate....which has been zero...
    Who do Providence, Frankford, Pottsville, Dayton, Duluth, Hartford, Rochester, Milwaukee, Akron, and Canton play this week?
  • O-Trap
    Al Bundy;1265629 wrote:Who do Providence, Frankford, Pottsville, Dayton, Duluth, Hartford, Rochester, Milwaukee, Akron, and Canton play this week?
    Reps.

    The Akron Pros ... 8-0-3 in 1920! :D
  • Footwedge
    Al Bundy;1265629 wrote:Who do Providence, Frankford, Pottsville, Dayton, Duluth, Hartford, Rochester, Milwaukee, Akron, and Canton play this week?
    Since Modell was owner...and don't site the AFL or the league Herschel Walker played in either. We're talking NFL...since Modell bought into the league.
  • Footwedge
    Con_Alma;1265274 wrote:.

    Having zero rate of businesses folding does not mean that all NFL franchises are of equal value. It's not about folding or not. It's about increasing/maximizing value and opportunity.
    That's how you view it. It's not how I view it. Modell could have rectified his problems that he himself created by negotiating in good faith with the Cleveland people. He chose not to do so. Instead, he took his ball and went home...to Baltimore...without even one conversation to the local official's on his intent.

    Modell==typical staunch right wing conservatieve...who saw nothing unethical in shitting in the cerael bowl of the people who sold out his stadium each and every week....inspite of the fact the toilets didn't even flush.

    People like Wellington Mara or Art Rooney would have given the team to their respective cities in lieu of moving away....thus enjoying their afterlife.
  • Footwedge
    The 7 lies regarding globalization...courtesy of the brilliant author Gabor Steingart in his book The War for Wealth.

    1. The natural progression for a developed economy is to move from an industry based to a service based economy.
    2. Economics and Morals have nothing in common.
    3. the new world is flat...according to Milton Friedman. (referencing a level, global playing field).
    4. The tide of globalization automatically lifts all boats.
    5. Globalization is a great work for peace.
    6. The nation can no longer do anything for the people in it's care.
    7. Globalization is a hot issue today.

    Pages 12 through 20, with in depth details and facts to prove all of these assertions as complete phoney balogna.

    Not gonna give away the endgame on what the author presents as a fool proof way of stopping the bleeding, but "protectionism" is NOT part of the solution.

    If anyone truly wants to know the complexities of today's globalization and the destructive forces on our private sector labor markets, both blue and white collared, then buy his book.
  • Al Bundy
    Footwedge;1265981 wrote:Since Modell was owner...and don't site the AFL or the league Herschel Walker played in either. We're talking NFL...since Modell bought into the league.
    That is a little different than your claim of "the history of the NFL" It is usually only Steeler fans who make up when the NFL started. Like any industry, most teams in sports go out of business when the league is new, then the league becomes stable. Major League baseball has not a team go out of business since 1899, but that does not mean that each owner does a good job of running his team. Modell was a horrible businessman, and I hate him for moving the Browns. With his power in the NFL, I still believe he could have worked out a deal that would allow him to sell the Browns to Learner and start an expansion franchise in Baltimore. I think Modell's decisions have more to do with him being an ass than any political views he might hold.
  • Footwedge
    Terry_Tate;1265293 wrote:LOL. Just because people with emotion and absolutely 0 ownership interest disagree doesn't make it wrong. That's laughable.
    Wut? If Con Alma wants to plead his case to the die hard Browns fans on how wonderfully smart his business move was, he can have at it.

    But I will tell you...the success of business is more than what is shown on the bottom line. It really is. Con Alma must have forgotten he had to take at least three credits on Business Ethics. I took mine circa 1978. So...when Sleeper, O-Trap, MB, Gut, Oats and the rest lay claim that the only grade on a report card for the businessman/corporation is his the hard dollar bottom line, they are categorically full of it.
  • Footwedge
    Al Bundy;1265995 wrote:That is a little different than your claim of "the history of the NFL" It is usually only Steeler fans who make up when the NFL started. Like any industry, most teams in sports go out of business when the league is new, then the league becomes stable. Major League baseball has not a team go out of business since 1899, but that does not mean that each owner does a good job of running his team. Modell was a horrible businessman, and I hate him for moving the Browns. With his power in the NFL, I still believe he could have worked out a deal that would allow him to sell the Browns to Learner and start an expansion franchise in Baltimore. I think Modell's decisions have more to do with him being an ass than any political views he might hold.
    Wow...a poster with a few brain cells around here. I agree with your assessment 100%. But he also could have quite easily kept his team by working out a compromise with the city officials. He chose not to do so.
  • Al Bundy
    Footwedge;1266011 wrote:Wow...a poster with a few brain cells around here. I agree with your assessment 100%. But he also could have quite easily kept his team by working out a compromise with the city officials. He chose not to do so.
    Perhaps, but he also needed a huge sum of cash quickly to handle some of his personal debt. Baltimore agreed to give him large sum of cash as part of the move. I would be shocked if Cleveland city officials would have given him a pile of cash to handle personal debt.
  • Con_Alma
    Footwedge;1265987 wrote:That's how you view it. It's not how I view it. Modell could have rectified his problems that he himself created by negotiating in good faith with the Cleveland people. He chose not to do so. Instead, he took his ball and went home...to Baltimore...without even one conversation to the local official's on his intent.

    Modell==typical staunch right wing conservatieve...who saw nothing unethical in ****ting in the cerael bowl of the people who sold out his stadium each and every week....inspite of the fact the toilets didn't even flush.

    People like Wellington Mara or Art Rooney would have given the team to their respective cities in lieu of moving away....thus enjoying their afterlife.
    That's an opinion with regard to how a person should handle their affairs. It doesn't negate anything I have posted. The business owner has the opportunity to do as you have stated or they can do as Mr. Modell did.

    I guess the "corrolary" to outsourcing is that a business owner decides what the should do as opposed to others.

    They have the choice. That was the point of my post. They are not obligated to either one. They owe the City of Cleveland nor the fans nothing more than the fans owe him.
  • gut
    Footwedge;1266007 wrote:So...when Sleeper, O-Trap, MB, Gut, Oats and the rest lay claim that the only grade on a report card for the businessman/corporation is his the hard dollar bottom line, they are categorically full of it.
    Another strawman. Still no answer to my question. Shocking.
  • Footwedge
    gut;1265262 wrote:No, Foot, you haven't answered the question at all. Saying you did doesn't make it so.

    How many jobs have been outsourced? Either you don't know or don't like the answer you found.
    Insourced? Maybe 2.5 million. Outsourced, well over 6.5 million...and counting. And not to mention the aggregate compensation lost due to outsourcing...nor the horrible trade inbalance that you people fail to discuss...and the social destruction to our people. Food stamps are shelled out to 50% more Americaans than what was the case in 2008.

    Those who promote an amoral "free trade" (sic) agreement as it stands in Southeast Asia, have absolutely no right to complain about the bloated welfare state we endure here today. It is your beliefs that have caused the neverending welfare/warfare state...and the huge national debt that rises in parallel with your views.
  • Footwedge
    gut;1266040 wrote:Another strawman. Still no answer to my question. Shocking.
    Not a strawman at all....factual... I know you think the term business ethics is an oxymoron, but it isn't. You either forgot about your business ethics classes, or you remember them and don't feel the need to live by them.

    Now I answered your question...for the third time. You gonna address what Mr. Steingart and myself have stated?

    My guess is that you will avoid them...as you have for days now....because if you address them piece by piece, you will come across as anti American as one can possibly be.
  • Footwedge
    Con_Alma;1266027 wrote: They are not obligated to either one. They owe the City of Cleveland nor the fans nothing more than the fans owe him.
    Modell moved his team. Duh...he didn't owe them....legally. Ethically he owed then plenty. The fans made him who he had become...so I hardly think the fans owed him anything more.

    Conversely, the American workers collectively made the American Corporations the capital that they are now using to embolden the high enders in China as well as themselves...through extremely amoral labor practices and illegal government subsidies..

    You apparently have no problem with that. Well, I do.

    Your position is consistant. The ends always justifies the means...no matter who is hurt or violated. You don''t remember your business ethics classes, now do you? Well. when I was in college the course was not an elective.
  • Terry_Tate
    Footwedge;1266007 wrote:Wut? If Con Alma wants to plead his case to the die hard Browns fans on how wonderfully smart his business move was, he can have at it.

    But I will tell you...the success of business is more than what is shown on the bottom line. It really is. Con Alma must have forgotten he had to take at least three credits on Business Ethics. I took mine circa 1978. So...when Sleeper, O-Trap, MB, Gut, Oats and the rest lay claim that the only grade on a report card for the businessman/corporation is his the hard dollar bottom line, they are categorically full of it.

    I'm saying Browns fans don't care about the business aspect because they aren't invested. They only care about their fanhood, so explaining the decision to them or basing it on how they feel is pointless. If I have a successful restaurant in Cincinnati and can move it to Columbus and make 1.5x the profit for my investors, or hell even just me, are you really saying I should stay in Cincinnati because my customers support me? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard.

    And just because Im arguing this doesn't mean it's how I would do it. If I ever get to run a company I'd run one of the most community friendly companies out there. My company is like that and I love it.
  • Footwedge
    Al Bundy;1266020 wrote:Perhaps, but he also needed a huge sum of cash quickly to handle some of his personal debt. Baltimore agreed to give him large sum of cash as part of the move. I would be shocked if Cleveland city officials would have given him a pile of cash to handle personal debt.
    You should have quit while you were ahead. Modell's liquidity problems were his own doing. As I stated 5 flippin times now, he never negotiated in good faith with the politicians that were elected into office by a whole bunch of Browns fans. No, he instead bankrolled a pussy move of bolting town, without even mentioning this classless and dispicable move. For that, he is forever villified as the fuckin demon he was...and will never smell the halls of Canton, Ohio.
  • gut
    Footwedge;1266046 wrote:Insourced? Maybe 2.5 million. Outsourced, well over 6.5 million...and counting. And not to mention the aggregate compensation lost due to outsourcing...nor the horrible trade inbalance that you people fail to discuss...and the social destruction to our people. Food stamps are shelled out to 50% more Americaans than what was the case in 2008.

    Those who promote an amoral "free trade" (sic) agreement as it stands in Southeast Asia, have absolutely no right to complain about the bloated welfare state we endure here today. It is your beliefs that have caused the neverending welfare/warfare state...and the huge national debt that rises in parallel with your views.
    Do you have any credible links to your numbers, or pulling it out of you know where again? 3 days of asking you the question and that's the best you can come up with? 5M+ jobs with foreign companies here in the US doesn't make your number look nearly as bad or dire as the outsourcing bashers claim. And that's all outsourcing. If we focus on just manufacturing the attacks on outsourcing get even more dubious.

    What about aggregate consumption gained due to lower prices from globalization? Again, half truths designed to intentionally skew the overall picture. Crickets, I suspect.
  • gut
    Footwedge;1266075 wrote:Not a strawman at all....factual... I know you think the term business ethics is an oxymoron, but it isn't.
    No, that's a strawman. I've said no such thing. What you fail to grasp is business ethics applies to the whole company, not just some unprofitable division. Is it ethical to put a whole company at risk in order to prop-up an uncompetitive division? Nope, never is and is, in fact, poor leadership. The problem is there's never been anything remotely unethical about shedding unprofitable lines - that's part of maintaining competitiveness - and now you want to pretend like outsourcing that to make them profitable again is somehow unethical.

    I know this is difficult for you to understand since you've obviously never been in the room making these decisions, but the answer is not as simple or cut-and-dry as you would like it to be. And business leaders don't, despite what liberals would have you believe, take such decisions lightly or heartlessly. You're making gross oversimplifications, which is to be expected from someone who has never been part of such decisions and is clueless to the process.