The Zelikow Memo
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FootwedgeInteresting how this declassified memo has not been discussed by the "liberal" media. We have a top official and lawyer from the State Department, that speaks of the US violating the Geneva Conventions. Hmmm.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/secret-torture-memo/
We have no right to complain about any other country violating basic human rights. -
believer
Terrorists have no human rights.Footwedge;1141160 wrote:We have no right to complain about any other country violating basic human rights. -
believer
Terrorists have no human rights and the Geneva Conventions do not apply to terrorists.Footwedge;1141160 wrote:We have no right to complain about any other country violating basic human rights. -
fish82
This, and the fact that no one even gives a shit anymore. Where the hell is the "dead horse" .gif when I need it?believer;1141166 wrote:Terrorists have no human rights and the Geneva Conventions do not apply to terrorists. -
brutus161
Your country has to agree to the Geneva Conventions decree, and you have to represent (military, dignitary, etc) your country for it to apply to you. -
ptown_trojans_1
There still are areas that apply to them. So, legally, yes, one could argue the U.S. should still follow.believer;1141166 wrote:Terrorists have no human rights and the Geneva Conventions do not apply to terrorists.
One of my old boss' at New America, Peter Bergen, who has personally interviewed Bin Laden back in the day, wrote in his latest book, The Longest War" that several officials inside the Bush administration that knocked down the policy and did call it illegal.
But, at the end of the day, no one cares. It is water under the bridge. No one wants to go back and revisit the period. Not yet anyways. -
Footwedge
Oh there are plenty of people who care. But since Obama lives in a glass house, he throws no stones. The story remains stowed under the rug.....because good Lord...we can't let the world know that we are as barbaric as the Mooslims.fish82;1141168 wrote:This, and the fact that no one even gives a **** anymore. Where the hell is the "dead horse" .gif when I need it? -
Footwedge
Terrorists are the local war heroes with the little bombs. Those with the big bombs are terrorists that make up the international rules...as they see fit.believer;1141166 wrote:Terrorists have no human rights and the Geneva Conventions do not apply to terrorists.
But don't cha worry...your heroes Bush, Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy, Feith, Condi and particularly John Yoo won't hang for their crimes. Only the war losers are ever held accountable. -
isadore
Hardly we pour water on guys heads to get information to save American lives, they cut off people's heads to mirror their prophet.Footwedge;1141328 wrote:Oh there are plenty of people who care. But since Obama lives in a glass house, he throws no stones. The story remains stowed under the rug.....because good Lord...we can't let the world know that we are as barbaric as the Mooslims. -
ptown_trojans_1
Not to rain on your parade, but it didn't save lives. When we waterboarded KSM, he already gave up all the critical intelligence. All the critical intel was given up by terrorists using traditional techniques.isadore;1141361 wrote:Hardly we pour water on guys heads to get information to save American lives, they cut off people's heads to mirror their prophet. -
isadore
there seems to be some disagreement about that.ptown_trojans_1;1141408 wrote:Not to rain on your parade, but it didn't save lives. When we waterboarded KSM, he already gave up all the critical intelligence. All the critical intel was given up by terrorists using traditional techniques. -
ptown_trojans_1
Not really. All the critical intel gained from KSM was obtained by FBI and CIA using traditional methods. Same for Abu Zubaida.isadore;1141417 wrote:there seems to be some disagreement about that.
After the waterboarding, we didn't really gain anything that wasn't verified through other traditional means as well.
This comes from the FBI guys themselves.
Like I said, just check out the book "The Longest War", Peter Berger actually interviews the FBI and CIA guys who interrogated KSM. -
dwccrew
Just Isadore talking out of his ass as usual. ptown coming in with knowledge about the situation, Isadore spewing more lies and garbage. -
isadore
and Michael Scheur, former head of the CIA bin laden unit disagrees.ptown_trojans_1;1141420 wrote:Not really. All the critical intel gained from KSM was obtained by FBI and CIA using traditional methods. Same for Abu Zubaida.
After the waterboarding, we didn't really gain anything that wasn't verified through other traditional means as well.
This comes from the FBI guys themselves.
Like I said, just check out the book "The Longest War", Peter Berger actually interviews the FBI and CIA guys who interrogated KSM. -
jhay78
Leon Panetta suggested those techniques helped us get bin Laden:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491509/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-CIA-admits-waterboarding-yielded-vital-information.html -
believer
Traditional methods? Bamboo shoots under the fingernails? Deprivation of sleepy time? Visits to the cell by Bubba? Crayoning the Koran maybe? :rolleyes:ptown_trojans_1;1141420 wrote:Not really. All the critical intel gained from KSM was obtained by FBI and CIA using traditional methods. -
Footwedge
Not even one documented shred of evidence supports this ludicrous claim. No, we torture people to sate our lust for inhumane punishment...whether or not the prisoner has done anything wrong or not. If you would do a little research on the subject, you would know this.isadore;1141361 wrote:Hardly we pour water on guys heads to get information to save American lives, .
No American who supports war crimes such as torture as specified by multople pacts internationally such as the Geneva Conventions and several others, has any right whatsoever in criticizing any other country and their own barbaric dictators for human rights violations...including Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, or Hitler. One who supports war criminality all swim in the same cesspool.
Come judgement day, rest assured God will want to know how an intelligent human being could support this most brutal form of masochism against His children. Good luck with that. -
believer
When the governments of nations go to war then I would expect that those governments would abide by the rules of war. But when rogue groups of terrorists who are not beholden to any government and who do not, themselves, follow the rules of war then the rules of war do not apply.Footwedge;1142307 wrote:No American who supports war crimes such as torture as specified by multople pacts internationally such as the Geneva Conventions and several others, has any right whatsoever in criticizing any other country and their own barbaric dictators for human rights violations...including Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, or Hitler. One who supports war criminality all swim in the same cesspool.
When the fire is out of control you fight fire with fire.
I wonder if God/Allah/Jehovah will show mercy upon his children who hijack airliners, kill their crews, and fly innocent passengers at hundreds of miles an hour into skyscrapers full of innocent people?Footwedge;1142307 wrote:Come judgement day, rest assured God will want to know how an intelligent human being could support this most brutal form of masochism against His children. Good luck with that.
You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. -
isadore
You know this statement makes absolutely know sense. And comparing the actions taken by the United States to protect itself from attack by Muslim fanatics with the atrocites of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot is ridiculous.foot wedge wrote:this most brutal form of masochism against His children -
Con_Alma
Judgement day is will be based of belief as Christ as the Messiah as opposed to good and bad activities. We all should be thankful for that, for there's not anyone among that would be seen as acceptable if it were.Footwedge;1142307 wrote:...
Come judgement day, rest assured God will want to know how an intelligent human being could support this most brutal form of masochism against His children. Good luck with that. -
Footwedge
It makes absolutely perfect sense....as the God I believe in will be fair and cast aside moral relativism. The eye for an eye...tooth for a tooth mantra is pretty much disdained in the Bible.isadore;1142493 wrote:You know this statement makes absolutely know sense. And comparing the actions taken by the United States to protect itself from attack by Muslim fanatics with the atrocites of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot is ridiculous.
Suspected evil doers being mangled and put into the most extreme pain imaginable is not only legislated as illegal and immoral internationally, but it will be graded and discussed come judgment day.
Our "merciful" Lord may not be so merciful for those that find comfort in torturing people that have been convicted of no crime whatsoever....let alone torturing those who are actually guilty.
Jesus underwent torture as subscribed by the state. How do you think Pontious Pilate made out? How about the followers of Pontious? -
Footwedge
That is your belief, not mine. I believe in a judgement day...a report card if you will that factors in many things as ascribed by the New Testament. The references to being a peacenik numbers in the hundreds.Con_Alma;1142496 wrote:Judgement day is will be based of belief as Christ as the Messiah as opposed to good and bad activities. We all should be thankful for that, for there's not anyone among that would be seen as acceptable if it were. -
fish82
As previously posted, the former head of the CIA appears to disagree with you. The "right or wrong" can be debated, but the fact that it has yielded results, at least to some extent, can not.Footwedge;1142307 wrote:Not even one documented shred of evidence supports this ludicrous claim. -
Footwedge
Until there is a former declaration from any one of the US major departments, State, FBI, the DoJ and yes the CIA to name a few.....then there is absolutely NO PROOF that torture has saved even one life.fish82;1142582 wrote:As previously posted, the former head of the CIA appears to disagree with you. The "right or wrong" can be debated, but the fact that it has yielded results, at least to some extent, can not.
Google away...you won't find one...not one substantiated case.
Even the wretched Dick Cheney's allegations were throroughly debunked.
^ Interviewed on Face the Nation in May 2009, former Vice President Dick Cheney cited CIA memos that gave two examples supporting the use of EITs in a ticking bomb scenario. That the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah prevented a plot to detonate a dirty bomb in Washington DC and similarly that information forced from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed prevented an attack on Los Angeles. These claims were later repeated in August 2009 during a FOX news interview and are still cited as valid examples. However, in 2008 the claims made in the 2007 CIA memos were investigated by the DoJ's Office of Professional Responsibility and heavily criticized. The DoJ report, released in February 2009, stated that Zubaydah had supplied the information before he was tortured and that no further credible information had been obtained from the torture itself. In the case of Mohammed, the attack on Los Angeles had already been exposed before his capture and his admissions under torture were little more than white noise given to end it. -
Footwedge
Wrong for so many reasons. If the US believed this nonsense, then why did we sign international law stating what we would do? And bombing our buildings is a legal act of war...not torturebeliever;1142348 wrote:When the governments of nations go to war then I would expect that those governments would abide by the rules of war. But when rogue groups of terrorists who are not beholden to any government and who do not, themselves, follow the rules of war then the rules of war do not apply.
Really? According to the New Testament? According to the Geneva Conventions?When the fire is out of control you fight fire with fire.
I doubt any of these deities will show any mercy towards those people either. But for those that support torture, they have their own skeletons to deal with come judgement day. Is there even one verse in the New Testament that tacitly supports torture on suspected murderers? The answer is no. Any believer in Christian tenents had better scour their own souls and conscience in preparation for Judgement Day.I wonder if God/Allah/Jehovah will show mercy upon his children who hijack airliners, kill their crews, and fly innocent passengers at hundreds of miles an hour into skyscrapers full of innocent people?