How to fix public schools

• Manhattan Buckeye

  Learning Spanish is better than not knowing any foreign language, but from a utility standpoint I'm not sure I'd even put in the top 5. It is taught in virtually every school because it is probably the easiest to teach/learn and in parts of the country you can see signs in Spanish and many people speak it as their first language. But if the goal is educating kids the path of least resistance isn't always the best. Regardless of what language is taught it needs to be more than just a vocabulary class, which was what my foreign language class was. Our French teacher had never been outside the U.S., how could she be expected to teach a proper accent?
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Didn't English pass French as the language of business? If so, what difference does it make if they learn French, German or Mandarin? Too many students in this country don't know the proper use of their own language, and can't write a coherent sentence. That's a sure ticket to a low paying job right there.
  
  I'm not being parochial here, I honestly don't see the need for another language early in life that isn't likely to benefit these kids any more than re-learning the same worthless facts every year and regurgitating them on tests.
  
  Teach kids how to read, write well, and understand basic functions that business will require: computer skills, including keyboard use, basic economic principles, and the fundamentals of running a household or small business. Do these things in elementary through about 8th grade, and then start figuring out which kids are smart enough to go on to college preparatory classes, and which should be put into internships and apprenticeships for jobs ranging from medical technician to plumber.
  
  We're just passing too many kids through the system learning basics that aren't ever going to be useful to them later in life, and then pushing them out the door unprepared to figure out what they want to do with the rest of their lives.
• iclfan2

  

  LJ;919099 wrote:Nah, you don't need to speak one of the world's most spoken languages. That won't help you in life :thumbdown:

  Umm how would it help me? All of the Mexican business men I deal with? I personally don't think they should teach it because it panders to immigrants and makes it easier for them to not assimilate. Regardless, I disagree with you and don't think it would EVER help me in life, where as when I traveled to Europe I actually used my German knowledge. Oh almost forgot, the one time it would have helped me was when I was 18 and tried telling some random guy at a Piggly Wiggly to buy me a case of beer. Sure could have used it in that instance.
• LJ

  

  iclfan2;920157 wrote:Umm how would it help me? All of the Mexican business men I deal with? I personally don't think they should teach it because it panders to immigrants and makes it easier for them to not assimilate. Regardless, I disagree with you and don't think it would EVER help me in life, where as when I traveled to Europe I actually used my German knowledge. Oh almost forgot, the one time it would have helped me was when I was 18 and tried telling some random guy at a Piggly Wiggly to buy me a case of beer. Sure could have used it in that instance.

  Maybe seeing as how it's the 2nd most native spoken language in the world. My point is not that Spanish is important, my point is that learning a second language is almost essential. It should be taught from a young age and it should be mandatory to be fluent in a 2nd language before graduating high school.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "Didn't English pass French as the language of business? If so, what difference does it make if they learn French, German or Mandarin?"
  
  Because those are the big 4. English is essential. The other three are beneficial. I've run across many contracts in the other 3 languages where we had to outsource the translation.
  
  I've never come across a Spanish contract, even in South American deals.
  
  In Europe French/German (high German and low German to catch all of the dialects in Switzerland and Austria) is typically spoken in addition to English, it certainly helps to know the language. Obviously with China emerging as an economic force it isn't a bad idea for Mandarin to be taught.
  
  Arabic would be the next IMO, after that Japanese.
  
  If we want to continue our descent into irrelevance, we can stick to Spanish and/or otherwise insist that everyone else speaks English.
• believer

  

  Manhattan Buckeye;920368 wrote:If we want to continue our descent into irrelevance, we can stick to Spanish and/or otherwise insist that everyone else speaks English.

  NAW. You have it all wrong. EVERY American child should be taught Spanish so our illiterate children can sell Big Macs to the illegals. No wait....I got that bass ackwards. It should have been "so every illegal can sell a Big Mac to our illiterate children."
• iclfan2

  

  LJ;920165 wrote:My point is not that Spanish is important, my point is that learning a second language is almost essential.

  Agreed.
• Gblock

  the other night during open house we had 8 computers set up for the parents to complete an online survey about the school. anyone who did it got entered to win a gift card so there were a lot of parents to attempt it. i was astonished to see that none of them knew how to use a computer and a very few of them could even read.
  
  I was in charge of assisting with the surveys by getting them signed in and their info entered so it was very embarrassing/awkward for myself and the parents to see that no way were they going to be able to do it because they couldnt read the questions. I actually read the questions to some of the parents. it was very sad. now many of these "parents" were actually grandma and grandpa so i can understand not knowing how to use a laptop but wow it was an eyeopener.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Gblock;920637 wrote:the other night during open house we had 8 computers set up for the parents to complete an online survey about the school. anyone who did it got entered to win a gift card so there were a lot of parents to attempt it. i was astonished to see that none of them knew how to use a computer and a very few of them could even read.
  
  I was in charge of assisting with the surveys by getting them signed in and their info entered so it was very embarrassing/awkward for myself and the parents to see that no way were they going to be able to do it because they couldnt read the questions. I actually read the questions to some of the parents. it was very sad. now many of these "parents" were actually grandma and grandpa so i can understand not knowing how to use a laptop but wow it was an eyeopener.

  Inner city school? Suburb? Rural?
• Con_Alma

  Not all classes in the educational process are intended to be world or vocationally applied.
  
  For example, I believe it's important to go through different types of offerings in the arts. Very few kids will sing or perform an instrument in their adult life yet it stimulates the intellect.
  
  It doesn't matter if Spanish or French or German or in my kids' cases Latin will be used in their adult life. It's important to me that they learn another language because it too has the ability to further stimulate the intellect. Often times it provides a greater understanding of their primary language and it's own intricacies.
• FatHobbit

  

  LJ;920165 wrote:Maybe seeing as how it's the 2nd most native spoken language in the world. My point is not that Spanish is important, my point is that learning a second language is almost essential. It should be taught from a young age and it should be mandatory to be fluent in a 2nd language before graduating high school.

  +1 that languages are important. Although I'm not sure I agree about being fluent in a 2nd language to graduate high school. A lot of people are perfectly content to stay inside the US and I don't think we should keep someone from graduating because they only speak English. I think the bar is much much lower than that unfortunately.
• FatHobbit

  

  Con_Alma;920670 wrote:Not all classes in the educational process are intended to be world or vocationally applied.
  
  For example, I believe it's important to go through different types of offerings in the arts. Very few kids will sing or perform an instrument in their adult life yet it stimulates the intellect.
  
  It doesn't matter if Spanish or French or German or in my kids' cases Latin will be used in their adult life. It's important to me that they learn another language because it too has the ability to further stimulate the intellect. Often times it provides a greater understanding of their primary language and it's own intricacies.

  I agree with that too. The more kids can be exposed to the better IMHO.
• Gblock

  ernest_t_bass;920646 wrote:Inner city school? Suburb? Rural?

  inner city columbus..next to poindexter village projects
• QuakerOats

  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204226204576601232986845102.html
  
  by Fran Tarkenton
  
  [h=1]What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules? [/h][h=2]Imagine a league where players who make it through three seasons could never be cut from the roster.[/h]
• FatHobbit

  

  QuakerOats;920714 wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204226204576601232986845102.html
  
  by Fran Tarkenton
  
  What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules?
  
  Imagine a league where players who make it through three seasons could never be cut from the roster.
  

  Don't NFL players get a pension after being in the league for four years? And they get paid millions of dollars for playing a game?
• queencitybuckeye

  FatHobbit;920734 wrote:And they get paid millions of dollars for playing a game?

  Partially correct. They get paid millions of dollars for playing a game well enough that people will shell out billions of dollars to watch them do it. In that context, they're worth every penny.
• FatHobbit

  

  queencitybuckeye;920740 wrote:Partially correct. They get paid millions of dollars for playing a game well enough that people will shell out billions of dollars to watch them do it. In that context, they're worth every penny.

  And they have a union to get them the best deal possible. I'm not really for the teachers union, but it just seems like a really odd analogy to me.
• Al Bundy

  FatHobbit;920747 wrote:And they have a union to get them the best deal possible. I'm not really for the teachers union, but it just seems like a really odd analogy to me.

  And the union that they have is constantly fighting for more and more guaranteed contracts so that they don't have to perform to keep their jobs. Fran may have had a point if he was trying to use the analogy to when he played, but with the current set up of huge signing bonuses, the analogy fails.
• QuakerOats

  FatHobbit;920734 wrote:Don't NFL players get a pension after being in the league for four years? And they get paid millions of dollars for playing a game?

  
  And they can get cut at any time for sub-par performance and lose their paycheck ---- a good incentive to stay at peak performance for as long as possible.
• cruiser_96

  

  I heart Con_Alma.
  
  Sir, one day, maybe, I'll buy you a bowl of Dip'N'Dots. I think you may have had an influence on Charlie Brown because you are a good man.
  
  BTW: Someone misused the word "to" above. It should have been "too".
• analogkid

  The ODE has a few initiatives coming down the pipe right now. The first one involves the training new teachers receive during their first several years of employment. New teachers will be paired up with a mentor for the first several years (looks like 4) of their career. The mentor will be trained and responsible for guiding the new teacher through the initial years and aiding them in reaching benchmarks related to a series of 7 teaching standards (that all relate to student achievement) that will eventually apply to all teachers.
  
  I like the idea as I see the treatment of our early teachers as being very poor. Most first year teachers get the toughest schedules combined with teaching the students who need the most support. If there is a mentoring procedure in place it is spotty with few concrete goals or expectations and most new teachers are largely left to their own devices and the good graces of their colleagues. This was my experience 13 years ago and it seems to still hold sway in many districts.
  
  The last statistics that I saw (put out by the ODE, I think) said that some 45% of all new teacher, nationally, will be out of the professional within 5 years. Certainly some of those teachers needed to move on to another profession, but some truly talented educators leave due to lack of support and poor working conditions. Additionally, those who stay are not given the benefit of the guidance and teaching that could improve their practice.
  
  As a benefit, it looks as if the 4 levels of teaching license are being proposed starting at resident educator, teacher, senior teacher, and master teacher trainer (roughly). Each of the licenses looks like it is tied to performance on 7 teaching standards. I looked over the standards and even the best teacher would be hard pressed meet all of them so everyone can find room for improvement. I could also see the standards being used as part of an evaluation system.
  
  The mentor system is in its first year and details about future years are sketchy at best. We will see if they stick to this one. It seems that every initiative in education has a fairly short life span.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Con_Alma;920670 wrote:Not all classes in the educational process are intended to be world or vocationally applied.
  
  For example, I believe it's important to go through different types of offerings in the arts. Very few kids will sing or perform an instrument in their adult life yet it stimulates the intellect.
  
  It doesn't matter if Spanish or French or German or in my kids' cases Latin will be used in their adult life. It's important to me that they learn another language because it too has the ability to further stimulate the intellect. Often times it provides a greater understanding of their primary language and it's own intricacies.

  This is the key to the whole discussion about languages. Schools have a limited amount of time to spend with kids each day, so it's not feasible (or realistic if you consider the wide range if IQs in a public school) to mandate a second language, especially for a graduation requirement.
  
  If people are going to go into business, then it is up to them to take languages that will help them with international business contacts. Otherwise, it's putting a huge requirement on a group when probably one percent or less will actually use or need it.
  
  We need to be preparing students to come out ready to work in the world, whether it be as an electrician, plumber or student who goes on to pick a profession to specialize in. There should be a two-tier system available so kids who simply aren't cut out for college have someplace productive to go.
• Manhattan Buckeye

  "This is the key to the whole discussion about languages. Schools have a limited amount of time to spend with kids each day, so it's not feasible (or realistic if you consider the wide range if IQs in a public school) to mandate a second language, especially for a graduation requirement."
  
  Then have a two tiered system, which is what other countries do and stop pretending that we're all "equal". Have "college prep" actually mean something.
• Con_Alma

  cruiser_96;920863 wrote:...
  
  BTW: Someone misused the word "to" above. It should have been "too".

  As long as no one said St. Ed(s) we're O.K..
• ernest_t_bass

  

  Writerbuckeye;921088 wrote: We need to be preparing students to come out ready to work in the world, whether it be as an electrician, plumber or student who goes on to pick a profession to specialize in. There should be a two-tier system available so kids who simply aren't cut out for college have someplace productive to go.

  
  ever heard of a career center?