The War on Drugs

• The Boss

  

  This is a topic that doesn't get enough attention, especially in times of economic and government financial crisis. So much money is wasted here.
  
  There are MANY examples of how and why it fails miserably. Here is a new one:
  
  One of my friends was arrested this weekend at camp ground that is known for drugs. Not in the negative way that some of you old schoolers think. It's a place where a few thousand people go camp in the woods every weekend in the summer and there is music and usually a festival every weekend. You pay a decent amount of money to get in, and rarely does anything bad happen there. Anyways, my friend sold some ecstasy to an undercover and got busted. This is the kind of guy who is NOT and does not make a living from the sale of drugs. He's the kind of guy who likes to be a middle man, likes to make sure everyone is having a good time. He has a real job, he pays taxes, he does not generate a black market income. Now the main question here is, compared to at least 400-500 people who are there and ARE major drug dealers, is this really the guy we want to bring in? He doesn't own a gun, he's not a threat to any one like the propaganda would lead you to believe. It's insane that this is the kind of person who will now be tagged as a drug dealer which only means one thing to most people.
  
  My point is, we've all heard the arguments about taxing, we've all seen many things that lead us to believe that legal drugs would benefit us greatly and that it would save money and make money for the government. We simply do not have the man power, regardless of how many millions of dollars are poured in, to stop the drug trade. We've seen what happens when alcohol was illegal, this is the same thing. Eventually there they had to say ok, this is stupid and it isn't working. It's time to do that with "illegal" drugs.
  
  We're filling up prisons with non violent offenders. People who were busted with an 8th of pot, or a few pills. Meanwhile it takes hundreds of man hours, thousands of dollars and months to lock up a major offender. And when it happens, it doesn't change anything.
  
  The people who I know will be fired up about this are conservatives. I consider myself a fiscal conservative, socially I'm probably more liberal. But mainly, I don't like that social issues distract our government and our voters from the issues that are really important--most of which I believe to be fiscal issues. But to those conservatives who don't like the idea, think about it this way: what right does the government have to tell you that you can drink a beer? You have to be 21? That's fine. 18 might even be better, but they can't outlaw that from you. Would you not look at that as a freedom taken away from you if they were to outlaw alcohol again? Most conservatives believe heavily in freedom and personal rights. Most don't want big government. So what right does the government have to say that a guy can't smoke a joint in his own house? Sure, the guy can do it now--and that's because there is no way to stop it. But suppose he's walking down the street, a cop smells him, stops him and busts him for smoking a joint. How is that different? Who was he hurting?
  
  Anyways, this should be a major topic of discussion IMO, mainly because of the financial issues that we face as a country and the amount of money spent on the war on drugs. But I invite some of the doubters to check out the number of documentaries on Netflix about drugs, they're very informative. Are there negatives to legalizing drugs? Certainly. Should we just let it be a free, open market? I don't believe so, certain things should always be illegal. But there are negatives with anything. When you're at the bar and there are 100 people there and one is being an out of control drunken idiot, do you say, "we should ban alcohol!" Or, do you say, "what a drunken idiot!" In that case you don't let the one negative effect the entire group--so why is it different?
  
  Here are a few links to some things about illegal drugs that people may be interested in looking over:
  
  www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Editorials/Guests/Legalize.html
  
  www.leap.cc/
  
  www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
  
  
  
  This is the kind of thing that we're still basing all of this on, and now is universally known to be bullshit:
  
  
  
  Are we not smart enough to move past this? Even hemp is illegal, do some research on hemp and tell me that isn't BS.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  This has been discussed (almost to death) on here in the past.
  
  Most of us who are conservative don't like the waste and don't believe it's effective.
  
  Some sort of legalization with taxes going to fund, among other things, rehab for those who need it is probably the answer.
  
  The hard part if figuring out how to police people who use and do things like drive.
  
  Also, where do you draw the line on what becomes legal? Do we legalize pot but say no to harder stuff like crystal meth? Since there's no really safe way to make that crap, I doubt you'll be seeing the government okaying its production anytime soon.
  
  Finally, there are a lot of people (and governments) that make a LOT of money off this. Things are not going to change without a huge fight, regardless of how broke the federal government is right now.
• I Wear Pants

  It needs to end. At the time of this writing we've spent $16,265,336,412 on it so far this year.
  
  http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock
  
  And Writer, I think it needs to be talked about more. Where are the "all the little things add up to a lot of spending" (and this isn't even a little thing) conservatives when it comes to this? Where is the outrage here? I don't even like to think about the non direct costs of the drug war either (lost income due to people losing jobs/credibility/etc for offenses, added drain on welfare system, cost of incarceration, loss of potential tax revenue, etc). And we're not just wasting money, we're putting people in prison for this shit. It's unacceptable.
• majorspark

  

  The war on drugs isn't going away any time soon. Too many public sector jobs are dependent on it.
• I Wear Pants

  majorspark;778417 wrote:The war on drugs isn't going away any time soon. Too many public sector jobs are dependent on it.

  That would be quite sad if that's a reason for it to be here. But again, you seem to have just accepted this as a fact whereas with other areas of needless, ineffectual spending it seems that you/other conservatives get more upset. I just wonder why that is?
• majorspark

  

  I Wear Pants;778418 wrote:That would be quite sad if that's a reason for it to be here.

  Its one big reason. Countless local governments employ law enforcement personnel that are specifically tasked to enforce drug laws. More state and local corrections officers to guard an increased prison population swollen with drug offenders. The feds also have their own agency specifically tasked to deal with illegal drug smuggling and use. They employ nearly 11,000 and operate on a budget of 2.5 billion.
  

  I Wear Pants;778418 wrote:But again, you seem to have just accepted this as a fact whereas with other areas of needless, ineffectual spending it seems that you/other conservatives get more upset. I just wonder why that is?

  I bitch about all kinds of spending. Defense, foreign aid, social welfare, etc. I wish I could change it. I cast my vote. Unfortunately I am out numbered by those that leach off the government teet. I guess I will just wait for the laws of economics to right the ship.
• believer

  

  majorspark;778417 wrote:The war on drugs isn't going away any time soon. Too many public sector jobs are dependent on it.

  The dirty little secret is the "War n drugs" accomplishes 2 things: It employs thousands of people on the public dole and it puts thousands of worthless druggies and their dirt bag dealers behind bars.
  
  What it doesn't do is reduce illegal drug use, criminal activity, and make our streets safer.
  
  You would think the Big Government folks would want to legalize it so they can tax it and regulate it rather than police it.
• The Boss

  

  believer;778445 wrote: You would think the Big Government folks would want to legalize it so they can tax it and regulate it rather than police it.

  
  The pro's outweigh the con's for both sides. But they'd rather sit on their hands for a few reasons, one being the jobs that you and others mentioned. And the second, I believe, being that they have no idea what will result from legalization. It could be a bad move, I can certainly admit that. Though all of the evidence suggests it won't be and the current system clearly doesn't work.
  
  One big problem we have here is that your vote doesn't count for as much as it should. Meaning that there are hardly any politicians these days willing to risk their seat/legacy on a major movement like this one. Which is ridiculous. And what is more ridiculous is that when one does come along, the media chews them up and spits them out and then they're automatically done. Once the media has written someone off as a nut job, it doesn't matter what that person said, a MAJORITY of voters will listen to the media and think he/she is a nut job when they're voting. So we don't even have politicians with the balls to touch this issue and those that have the balls, well, they have a short shelf life in politics.
• Glory Days

  

  The Boss;777902 wrote:This is a topic that doesn't get enough attention, especially in times of economic and government financial crisis. So much money is wasted here....
  

  
  i am sure the parent of someone who OD on ecstasy might think otherwise about your friend. and its common knowledge selling drugs is illegal, your friend took a chance and was busted, man up.
  
  what did they charge your friend with? trafficking and possession?
• Glory Days

  

  majorspark;778417 wrote:The war on drugs isn't going away any time soon. Too many public sector jobs are dependent on it.

  
  Too many "private sector" jobs also....dont forget the drug dealers. they wont just fold up shop and go away when they are making a living off it.
  
  and everyone says tax it, ummm how? i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?
• The Boss

  

  Glory Days;778556 wrote:i am sure the parent of someone who OD on ecstasy might think otherwise about your friend. and its common knowledge selling drugs is illegal, your friend took a chance and was busted, man up.
  
  what did they charge your friend with? trafficking and possession?

  Man up? LOL, you missed the point.
  

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:Too many "private sector" jobs also....dont forget the drug dealers. they wont just fold up shop and go away when they are making a living off it.
  
  and everyone says tax it, ummm how? i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?

  
  Educate yourself before you wreck yourself.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:Too many "private sector" jobs also....dont forget the drug dealers. they wont just fold up shop and go away when they are making a living off it.
  
  and everyone says tax it, ummm how? i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?

  
  Ummm perhaps like California has done where it's used for "medicinal" purposes. Buying great weed at a reasonable price is a LOT easier than trying to grow your own which (1) likely won't be as good and (2) is a pain in the ass to get right. So the VERY EASY answer to your question is simply to tax what is sold by growers to distributors and tax what is sold to people.
  
  As for why conservatives aren't out there making noises about this: I think REAL fiscal conservatives are. The problem is there are too many populists who call themselves Republicans sitting in seats of power. They don't want to rock a multi-billion dollar boat that brings tons of money to their districts and gets them votes.
  
  http://cajobsblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/marijuana-shops-lead-to-jobs-in.html
• The Boss

  

  Politicians in office for all the wrong reasons is definitely a problem, and one that is damn near impossible to come up with a solution for. Other than voting, but you don't have enough resources to enlighten enough voters. And no matter how much money you can come up with, Fox, CNN, etc., will always have more.
  
  Hell there isn't even a tiny bit of accountability with the media anymore. Everyone wants to break the story first, everyone wants to be heard and be known and there are so many different sources shooting so much different news at people so quickly that they don't have to be accountable. They've made it so that the average person's attention span isn't long enough to remember their screw ups.
• queencitybuckeye

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?

  
  The same reason that I can distill liquor and yet nearly everyone buys from a traditional business that pays taxes.
• Glory Days

  

  The Boss;778578 wrote:Man up? LOL, you missed the point.
  
  
  
  Educate yourself before you wreck yourself.

  
  yeah, man up. you are bitching because your friend got busted. "he has real job and just wants everyone to have a good time...blah blah blah" nice sob story. you want non violent criminals out of prison, dont continue to do illegal activity. clearly people arent afraid of the punishment.
  
  and your friend wasnt selling weed, he was selling ecstasy.
• majorspark

  

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:Too many "private sector" jobs also....dont forget the drug dealers. they wont just fold up shop and go away when they are making a living off it.

  The bootleggers did.
  

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:and everyone says tax it, ummm how? i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?

  I can make my own wine. I prefer to pick up a bottle at the local grocery store.
• Glory Days

  

  majorspark;778730 wrote:The bootleggers did.
  

  
  sorta, they just moved to book keeping and other organized crime.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Glory Days;778744 wrote:sorta, they just moved to book keeping and other organized crime.

  
  Right. They moved to other ILLEGAL activities where they could inflate the price and "control" their competitors. But they aren't selling booze anymore, now are they?
• Glory Days

  

  queencitybuckeye;778628 wrote:The same reason that I can distill liquor and yet nearly everyone buys from a traditional business that pays taxes.

  
  habit. because thats the way its been done for a long time.
• Glory Days

  

  Writerbuckeye;778756 wrote:Right. They moved to other ILLEGAL activities where they could inflate the price and "control" their competitors. But they aren't selling booze anymore, now are they?

  
  so we just continue to legalize crimes as they become a problem?
• Glory Days

  

  I Wear Pants;778371 wrote:It needs to end. At the time of this writing we've spent $16,265,336,412 on it so far this year.
  
  http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock

  about 20% of that is spent fighting marijuana. do you think the harder more dangerous drugs be legalized too?
• cruiser_96

  

  The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.
  
  Just gimme my weed and I'll do whatever you want.
  
  Thanks, but no thanks.
• I Wear Pants

  Glory Days;778558 wrote:Too many "private sector" jobs also....dont forget the drug dealers. they wont just fold up shop and go away when they are making a living off it.
  
  and everyone says tax it, ummm how? i can grow and manufacture all kinds of drugs without people knowing if i wanted to. how would someone tax me?

  I can grow and sell tobacco by myself too but no one does that.
• I Wear Pants

  Glory Days;778775 wrote:about 20% of that is spent fighting marijuana. do you think the harder more dangerous drugs be legalized too?

  Yes. Because everything I've read on the subject has shown that fighting drugs in the current way does not work, at all. And it's not like we've only got a small period of time that we're looking at. We've been doing the same shit for 50 years. It doesn't work, the drug war is an unmitigated disaster. What I have seen are many studies and actual programs that show prevention, treatment, and rehabilitation programs are far more effective at discouraging drug use and are also more cost efficient.
  
  Of course that won't happen any time soon because (and I'm sure they'll be an example in this thread shortly) people who don't actually care about stopping drugs will read that and think "he wants Meth to be legal" or bring up something stupid about children. No one is suggesting kids should be allowed to use drugs just like kids shouldn't be allowed to use alcohol or tobacco. But I see no point in wasting billions and billions of dollars and locking up hundreds of thousands of people as well as the violence and crime that stems from our current drug policies.
  

  Glory Days;778744 wrote:sorta, they just moved to book keeping and other organized crime.

  No, they moved to producing and distributing their product legally. People, despite what you probably think, enjoy being able to say they're legitimate business people. Assuming it could be profitable I'd bet the farm that most pot dealers, etc would love to be working in a dispensary or store of some sort to sell their product instead of trying to establish business by way of shady, illegal, back alley deals.
• Bigred1995

  

  The moment for me that it clicked that this "War on Drugs" was a huge waste of money was when I was watching an episode of COPS! I don't remember where they were, but this cop pulls up to two individuals working on a disabled car parked on the side of the street, in a neighborhood. The officer suspected that the two men were either drunk, high or both. He questioned the two guys and asked if he could search them. The two men agreed to be search. The first guy came up clean! When the officer started searching the second man, he noticed something in his pocket. As the officer started pulling the object out of the man's pocket, the guy took off running! The following is why it's a waste of money...The officer then called for back up to chase this person! There were somewhere between 10 - 20 officers that responded to the call and a helicopter! The chase and search lasted, maybe 20 minutes (with all of the editing you really can't tell), but they eventually caught and arrested the guy. So what was pulled from the guy's pocket? A very small bag of weed, maybe enough to roll may 2 or 3 joints. Now when you think of the resources used to chase and apprehend this person for maybe $30 worth of weed, was it really worth it? The court fines this person will probably had to pay will not cover the cost of all of those officers and that helicopter!