Governor Kasich
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O-Trap
Gblock;732551 wrote:90-77.6....is not 18 percent and w/52,000 students including special ed, esl ...homeless shelters, juvinile correction fascilities all within one of ohio's largest district that really is not surprising and i think your being a little harsh. certainly dublin, new albany dont have some of the challenges that columbus has to deal with. we have the students that sometimes simply dont want to graduate and we are doing our best. this bill isnt going to change the community. honestly all the students who try to graduate, graduate...i get exactly what wkfn is inferring
I think you both mean what he's "implying."Writerbuckeye;732566 wrote:Of course you get what he's inferring. I wouldn't expect you to think otherwise.
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wkfan
I'm just trying to understand if the person completely realizes what classroom teachers deal with...and, exactly how much influence a teacher has on things like graduation rates?O-Trap;732519 wrote:I'm curious where you are going with this, and I want to hear it out. Would you mind explaining the rationale behind the question? I really have appreciated your willingness to hash out subjects like these lately, so I appreciate your perspective and would like to hear it on the question you asked.
Sometimes trying to use private enterprise 'market-pressure' and private enterprise concepts like 'run a school district like a business' just doesn't translate to public domain entities. -
wkfan
Not intending to be condescending....just asking a question about how much time you have spent in an actual classroom working with students in an effort to understand where you are coming from.Writerbuckeye;732541 wrote:I have a degree in education, although I never taught. I did do a couple student internships.
I answered your question, but I find it insulting and condescending in tone. If I'm wrong, correct me. It appeared as if you were saying to me: you haven't spent any time in a classroom so you have no idea what you're talking about.
I've been a step parent who attended teacher-student conferences and other similar activities during that time, so I've been involved in a child's student life. I also have two nieces and a nephew I'm close to, and have long discussions about with their mother on issues related to their education.
Not that I have to justify ANYTHING to you.
I think your statements were made in a vacuum without much practical kinowledge...and you proved that. -
O-Trap
Ah, I see. For what it's worth, I hear about it daily when my wife gets home, and I see it constantly in the kids I tutor and mentor.wkfan;732589 wrote:I'm just trying to understand if the person completely realizes what classroom teachers deal with...and, exactly how much influence a teacher has on things like graduation rates?
Eh, you'd be surprised. Just as there are students who will and won't graduate, no matter the quality of the teacher, there are "customers" who will and won't buy/sign-up/etc., no matter the quality of the salesperson.wkfan;732589 wrote:Sometimes trying to use private enterprise 'market-pressure' and private enterprise concepts like 'run a school district like a business' just doesn't translate to public domain entities.
That's why I think that, both in public and private sectors, to truly evaluate by using a metric like that, you need to evaluate the "fencers." These are the ones that can be swayed. In elections, these would be the "swing" voters ... the ones politicians work like dogs to reach. In many sales trainings, these are the ones to which sales pitches are catered, because they're the group that needs the nudge, whereas some will buy with no sales presentation at all, and others won't buy even from the perfect sales presentation.
Same idea in the schools. The "fencers" are key. The ambitious, straight 'A' students are always wonderful, but some of them would learn just as well with independent studies. The back-of-the-class apathetic students aren't going to listen to the teacher even if he or she is a world-famous authority in his/her field. It's the group in between that would probably be the best sample for evaluating teachers.
I understand the difference between a true public service and a private sector enterprise, but there are indeed principles that can be applied across the board when it comes to employment. There needs ... NEEDS ... to be added incentive to be the best teacher you can be. Given that this is still employment, the easiest incentive is pay increase/decrease and employment/termination. -
GblockO-Trap;732572 wrote:I think you both mean what he's "implying."
+1 -
Writerbuckeye
wkfan;732593 wrote:Not intending to be condescending....just asking a question about how much time you have spent in an actual classroom working with students in an effort to understand where you are coming from.
I think your statements were made in a vacuum without much practical kinowledge...and you proved that.
Why lie? You did intend to be condescending and you were.
By the way, this kind of "logic" gets nowhere with most people. You only come across as a condescending jerk, and people could care less if you think you have expertise in a given area or not. The message gets lost in the medium.
I think this is why so many of the SB5 opponents come across as unlikeable. Too many of them come at you with this chip on their shoulder like they will always know better than you what should be done; that somehow what they do is a complete mystery to anyone outside their area, and it's a waste of time trying to discuss it.
Don't take it personally, though. Educators fall into that category of self-style elitists who simply believe they are smarter/better than most folks. Of course, you may not be an educator but someone else who falls into the elitist category...there are quite a few of them around. -
Writerbuckeye
I plead guilty for bad grammar. I tend to use proper English when I type on these forums, but it's easy to get lazy and forget some of the rules. After all, I'm not writing a thesis, only having a "conversation".
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GblockWriterbuckeye;732623 wrote:Why lie? You did intend to be condescending and you were.
I think this is why so many of the SB5 proponents come across as unlikeable. Too many of them come at you with this chip on their shoulder like they will always know better than you what should be done; that somehow the private sector is a complete mystery to anyone outside that area, and it's a waste of time trying to discuss it.
.
I think this is why so many of the SB5 proponents come across as unlikeable. Too many of them come at you with this chip on their shoulder like they will always know better than you what should be done; that somehow the private sector is a complete mystery to anyone outside that area, and it's a waste of time trying to discuss it. -
Writerbuckeye
Your change of my quote was so inane you felt you had to post it twice?
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BigdoggWriter is getting his lunch handed to him, pun intended!
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Writerbuckeye
Only in your imagination.
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HitsRus
Doggie....If writer is getting his lunch handed to him..... how does it feel to be chewed up and spat out? -
Belly35
Want to know why America does not need Unions ...
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-04/obama-offers-businesses-5-billion-for-retiree-health-update2-.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/04/hidden_bailout_of_unions_and_b.html
Obamacare Payoff to Unions
Section 1102 of the Affordable Care Act, which created something called the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program. The legislation called for the program to spend a total of $5 billion, beginning in June 2010 -- shortly after Obamacare was passed -- and ending on January 1, 2014, as the system of national health care exchanges was scheduled to go into effect.
The idea was to subsidize unions, states, and companies that had made commitments to provide health insurance for workers who retired early -- between the ages of 55 and 64, before they were eligible for Medicare. According to a new report prepared by the Department of Health and Human Services, "People in the early retiree age group…often face difficulties obtaining insurance in the individual market because of age or chronic conditions that make coverage unaffordable or inaccessible." As a result, fewer and fewer organizations have been offering coverage to early retirees; the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program was designed to subsidize such coverage until the creation of Obamacare's health-care exchanges.
The program began making payouts on June 1, 2010. Between that date and the end of 2010, it paid out about $535 million dollars. But according to the new report, the rate of spending has since increased dramatically, to about $1.3 billion just for the first two and a half months of this year. At that rate, it could burn through the entire $5 billion appropriation as early as 2012.
Where is the money going? According to the new report, the biggest single recipient of an early-retiree bailout is the United Auto Workers, which has so far received $206,798,086. Other big recipients include AT&T, which received $140,022,949, and Verizon, which received $91,702,538. General Electric, in the news recently for not paying any U.S. taxes last year, received $36,607,818. General Motors, recipient of a massive government bailout, received $19,002,669.
The program also paid large sums of money to state governments. The Public Employees Retirement System of Ohio received $70,557,764; the Teacher Retirement System of Texas received $68,074,118; the California Public Employees Retirement System, or CalPERS, received $57,834,267; the Georgia Department of Community Health received $57,936,127; and the state of New York received $47,869,044. Other states received lesser but still substantial sums.
But payments to individual states were dwarfed by the payout to the auto workers union, which received more than the states of New York, California, and Texas combined. Other unions also received government funds, including the United Food and Commercial Workers, the United Mine Workers, -
fish82
wkfan;732589 wrote:I'm just trying to understand if the person completely realizes what classroom teachers deal with...and, exactly how much influence a teacher has on things like graduation rates?
Sometimes trying to use private enterprise 'market-pressure' and private enterprise concepts like 'run a school district like a business' just doesn't translate to public domain entities.
What does spending time in the classroom have to do with it? Would that magically create some money to pay teachers with? I'd love to hear your take on how that would make the least bit of difference.
Isn't it reasonable to expect a teacher to have influence on graduation rates? Isn't that like part of their job or something silly like that? -
fish82
So sayeth the master.Bigdogg;732852 wrote:Writer is getting his lunch handed to him, pun intended! -
O-Trap
I must not have gotten much sleep. Where's the pun?Bigdogg;732852 wrote:Writer is getting his lunch handed to him, pun intended! -
fish82
Maybe he meant "bun." Bun...lunch...I dunno, hard to tell with the dogmeister.O-Trap;733099 wrote:I must not have gotten much sleep. Where's the pun?
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O-Trap
Writer and lunch? Writer and handed to him?
This pun is either a stretch, or not a pun at all. -
Thread Bomber
FixedBigdogg;732852 wrote:Writer is Having dog for lunch -
O-Trap
Writer is Chinese?Thread Bomber;733108 wrote:Fixed -
wkfanWow....where do I begin??/
Interesting....you must be some sort of savant. You can read intent through an internet chat board. hats off to you.Writerbuckeye;732623 wrote:Why lie? You did intend to be condescending and you were.
(now that was condescending - my original post was not intended to be)
Guess the message was lsot on you.....no retort other than to call me names.Writerbuckeye;732623 wrote:By the way, this kind of "logic" gets nowhere with most people. You only come across as a condescending jerk, and people could care less if you think you have expertise in a given area or not. The message gets lost in the medium.
Well played.
(condescending again...intended this time)
There you go again....calling names without any real rebuttal.Writerbuckeye;732623 wrote:I think this is why so many of the SB5 opponents come across as unlikeable. Too many of them come at you with this chip on their shoulder like they will always know better than you what should be done; that somehow what they do is a complete mystery to anyone outside their area, and it's a waste of time trying to discuss it..
I simply asked a question to guage whether you know what you are talking about.
BTW.....I got my answer.
Calling names again....at least, you are consistent.Writerbuckeye;732623 wrote:Don't take it personally, though. Educators fall into that category of self-style elitists who simply believe they are smarter/better than most folks. Of course, you may not be an educator but someone else who falls into the elitist category...there are quite a few of them around.
Not an educator or an elitist....just someone who has a real interst in education and volunteers alot of time in classrooms with kids and teachers and administrators.
I would never take personal attacks from you personally as I know what I am dealing with and where you are coming from. -
Bigdoggwkfan;733134 wrote:Wow....where do I begin??/
Interesting....you must be some sort of savant. You can read intent through an internet chat board. hats off to you.
(now that was condescending - my original post was not intended to be)
Guess the message was lsot on you.....no retort other than to call me names.
Well played.
(condescending again...intended this time)
There you go again....calling names without any real rebuttal.
I simply asked a question to guage whether you know what you are talking about.
BTW.....I got my answer.
Calling names again....at least, you are consistent.
Not an educator or an elitist....just someone who has a real interst in education and volunteers alot of time in classrooms with kids and teachers and administrators.
I would never take personal attacks from you personally as I know what I am dealing with and where you are coming from.
+1 -
O-Trap
When it comes to this issue, I disagree with wkfan, and I agree with Writer. However, I found myself cringing at some of Writer's comments in the last couple pages. They did sound kind of condescending and not very substantive. I didn't take wkfan's comments as being condescending or elitist at all.
We need to remember that while this is a serious matter in our public square, it needs to be hashed out with rational, unemotional, and patient civility. -
wkfan
I think that if you spent time in a classroom you would see what teachers have to deal with that affect student achievement, graduation rates, etc that are way outside of their sphere of influence.fish82;733090 wrote:What does spending time in the classroom have to do with it? Would that magically create some money to pay teachers with? I'd love to hear your take on how that would make the least bit of difference.
Isn't it reasonable to expect a teacher to have influence on graduation rates? Isn't that like part of their job or something silly like that?
When you see students who will not do homework and the parents don't see a reason for them to do it...and then you wonder why they don't graduate.
When you see students who have a 'doctors appointment' every other Friday, thereby missing 10% of the school year....and when asked, the student tells the teacher that they are out because the parent if off work every other Friday and doesn't want to get out of bed to get the kid to school....and then you wonder why they don't graduate.
When you see students who fall asleep or are zoned out during the day because their parents think that 11:00pm is an age appropriate bed time for a 1st grader......and then you wonder why they don't graduate.
When you see students who go 'back home' (India, Mexico, Russia, etc) for 6 weeks during the school year and don't make up the work.......and then you wonder why they don't graduate.
These are real life examples of kids in the school that I volunteer in......and all differnt kids There is no amount of money that you can throw at things like this....and no amount of 'parenting the parents' that a teacher can undertake that can change these types of behaviors.
Yes, it is part of a teacher's job to educate a kid on the graded courses of study that the State of Ohio prescribes for them. Where are the graded courses of study for 'parenting the parents'?? -
Con_Alma
...which is exactly why I believe more money isn't going to fix public education. We rely too much on it now. There's no effort outside of the classroom in general to seek educational opportunities. Parents believe their kid will be educated by a school system. It won't ever happen if the kid doesn't want it to.wkfan;733151 wrote:I think that if you spent time in a classroom you would see what teachers have to deal with that affect student achievement, graduation rates, etc that are way outside of their sphere of influence.
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