All In The Name of Security?

• tk421

  

  So, are the American people still OK with the new TSA "security" procedures? Here's a post from an aviation message board I'm on. Would you be fine with this? Where is the line drawn? How does this make flying safer? It's all about control and the subjugation of the public.
  

  After traveling this holiday season, I am left humiliated. I was selected for the infamous TSA pat-downs twice. At first, I thought it was no big deal. I expected that it may happen to me, so I was able to mentally prepare for the body search. Well, I was wrong. I was at the Philadelphia Airport, and a woman instructed me to move a few feet to the clear booth in front of me and wait. I looked around and could see curious faces staring in my direction. I saw my finance looking at me with a caring face. What I did not see was a private room. Tears began to fill my eyes as I realized I would be molested in front of all these people. Due to my standards of modesty encouraged by Judaism, I was wearing a knee-length denim skirt.
  
  The TSA official took her hands down my thighs and calves, then went up the middle until she felt my genitalia. She then felt my pubic bone with the back of her hands. Afterward, she pulled forward my hemline, so she was able to see down my skirt, including my underwear. Onlookers close-by were able to see this as well. She felt underneath my bra-wire, and the side of my breasts. Fellow passengers just stood there, watching this happen to me. I wanted to burst into tears. I so badly wanted someone to rise up and say: Don’t do this! She is just a girl! Please stop! But there was no one. People watched, then took up their bags, got one last look, and began walking to their gate. I tried to be calm, I didn’t want to cause a scene or anything else that would prevent me from flying home. My fiance had my bags, and we left for our gate. I thought this awful experience was behind me. Well, I was wrong once again.
  
  At the gate, TSA officials began assembling like locusts in front of the gate. This was an additional security measure, the intercom voice said. While waiting to board with my finance, I get waved down by a official. They want to check my bags. I hand over my backpack and roller carry-on. I honestly answer “not well” when the official asks how I am doing. They open my carry-on, and my undergarments are displayed to everyone looking. They go through my clothing in both of my bags, and when they are satisfied, they hand them back to me as if they did no wrong. I am beyond humiliated. My privacy has ceased to exist.
  
  The worst part of this story is that I treasure my privacy. I have higher modesty standards than most people. I cover my shoulders, chest, mid-section, and thighs. I wear skirts. I also am careful about who I touch, and I am even more particular about who touches me. I cherish my body, and my personal space. The TSA robbed me of this. I am not being over-dramatic. I am simply being honest. A complete stranger was able to see down my pants. They saw my underwear. They saw my private parts. This is not normal. I did not agree to this. I was forced.
  
  When my stay at home was over, I hoped that this would not happen again. Once again, I was wrong. There were two lines, one left and one right. The left had within it two lines leading to two metal detectors. The right line was considerably smaller. There was a full-body scanner, and a metal detector. I told the attendant I wanted to proceed through the metal detector because I did not want to be exposed to any radiation. After I went through the metal detector, I was waved to the side. The pat-down was going to happen again. This time, however, I asked why. The official informed me that it was because I did not go through the body-scanner. But, the entire left line was not going through the body scanner, and they were able to go to the gate without this intrusive search. The official did not have an answer to this.
  
  I saw several black screens, and when the official saw me staring she offered me privacy during the search. I was relieved that the entire population at the gate would not see me get violated. I was accompanied by two female attendants, and the search began. I felt it was more intrusive than the one I experienced in Philadelphia. Perhaps it was because it was in private, perhaps it was just different standards used by the airport. Either way, my genitalia was felt, my breasts were felt, both thighs were rubbed, and my rear-end was felt as well. The only question I had at that point was: Why me?
  
  Why me? I am a twenty-two year old girl. I have light tan skin, usually straight hair, large brown eyes, and I always wear a smile on my face. I am no terrorist. “Well, how do we know that?” the TSA official replied. I fit no profile. How is it helping security if I am the one who gets assaulted? People see me, and the thought I am a terrorist is no where in their heads. If it was, I would get suspicious stares everywhere I went. I would make people uncomfortable. How does this help our security? Treating everyone like a terrorist? That is ridiculous. By treating everyone like a terrorist, we are implying that we haven’t a clue who terrorists are. But we do know who terrorists are. They fit a profile, yet we are not using this. We make small children get pat-downs because they can be explosive. We molest young modest women like they are hiding deadly weapons in their skirts, instead of realizing they are protecting their bodies from objectification.
  
  I treasure my body. I am protective of it. But now, I am left wondering what it’s worth. If some stranger is allowed under the law to feel to touch me wherever they want, no matter how private, how precious is my body? How valuable is my privacy? How prized is my dignity?
  
  My country disappointed me. I was born in America, raised in America, educated in America. I rarely leave America, yet America treats me like a terrorist. There are other countries, Israel for example, who encounter terrorism more frequently than the USA, yet I have never been molested as a typical procedure. Israel has it right. They are more knowledgeable, yet we are not accessing them. Instead passengers who are obviously not terrorist are being sexually assaulted, and their bags are being displayed for all to see.
  
  What is the passenger left with? Humiliation, and the realization that no one, including the United States government, cares about our privacy or dignity. Our bodies are not anything special, they are not anything to be treasured, they are worthless.

  Does no one else feel that this conduct by agents of the government is extremely over the line? Where is the outrage? Would anyone on this site want to watch their wife/SO/mother/child go through this type of "screening"? Would I or anyone else not be immediately arrested if we came up to someone on the street and did this? Why the free pass for the government, who is supposed to protect it's citizens?
• BoatShoes

  I remember in the first season of LOST when it was obvious that either Sayid or Sawyer had to be the prisoner who was on board the plane. No way it could be the sweet and beautiful Kate. The young woman you cite seems to suggest that invasive body searches aren't intrinsically wrong but that she should not have been subjected to it in particular because she doesn't fit the profile of a terrorist. She seems to suggest that these persons who fit the profile of a "terrorist" should indeed endure such things. I don't disagree with her point but why don't we just stop beating around the bush. "I think only Arab or Persian persons or people adhering to the Muslim faith ought to be subjected to intense searches prior to boarding a flight because these are the types of people that are terrorists." Realistically, I don't think that particular position should be dismissed out right because politically correct sensibilities but lets just put it on the table and be clear on our position if indeed that's what it is. Perhaps TK421 doesn't agree with these types of searches for anyone but it seems to me there are plenty of people who might say "You shouldn't search a prepubescent teenage catholic girl like that but you would be justified to search a 22 year old male of Middle Eastern descent based solely upon these physical characteristics because those are the "type of people" who blow up buildings with planes, etc." For instance, I think the author of this post might endorse such a view.
  
  Fwiw I don't think the conduct by the TSA is over the line. Personally I feel safer when I fly. I'm sure you'll say "but...but...but...wait til they put an anal probe in your cornhole!!! Gah!" but these kinds of slippery slope arguments are unjustified and the day cavity searches for everyone gets on the table well then I'll probably feel as if that's too far but we're not there and I personally am not harmed in my opinion by such searches. Others, like the woman in the story with a more modest persuasion, well yes, I believe I can see a legitimate argument as to how they might harmed in a way beyond mere offense but I think by and large this probably isn't the case.
  
  I'm sure it will all work itself out and the balanced between liberty and security will become better defined as often takes time as new dangers arise and the world changes but we've managed to do a pretty good job thus far and I have faith that particular status quo will remain.
• BGFalcons82

  

  BoatShoes;627898 wrote:Fwiw I don't think the conduct by the TSA is over the line. Personally I feel safer when I fly. I'm sure you'll say "but...but...but...wait til they put an anal probe in your cornhole!!! Gah!" but these kinds of slippery slope arguments are unjustified and the day cavity searches for everyone gets on the table well then I'll probably feel as if that's too far but we're not there and I personally am not harmed in my opinion by such searches. Others, like the woman in the story with a more modest persuasion, well yes, I believe I can see a legitimate argument as to how they might harmed in a way beyond mere offense but I think by and large this probably isn't the case.

  
  I get it. You are a guy and it doesn't bother you to be molested. Most guys probably feel this way.
  
  Put yourself in this woman's shoes...or any woman that feels like she does. Would you like to have your breasts and genitalia touched in front of strangers? Would you like to have your underwear displayed to strangers? Would you approve of getting felt up in front of strangers? Because you don't see a problem with it, then nobody should either? I think people should put themselves in other's shoes before passing judgement. It's taught me several valuable lessons over the years every time I disparage other's thoughts and feelings. Tough lessons, but necessary.
• BoatShoes

  BGFalcons82;628052 wrote:I get it. You are a guy and it doesn't bother you to be molested. Most guys probably feel this way.
  
  Put yourself in this woman's shoes...or any woman that feels like she does. Would you like to have your breasts and genitalia touched in front of strangers? Would you like to have your underwear displayed to strangers? Would you approve of getting felt up in front of strangers? Because you don't see a problem with it, then nobody should either? I think people should put themselves in other's shoes before passing judgement. It's taught me several valuable lessons over the years every time I disparage other's thoughts and feelings. Tough lessons, but necessary.

  
  I acknowledged that she probably felt as if she were harmed as opposed to offended. Perhaps she may have incurred some level of legitimate emotional distress at the hands of the People. All of this I accept. I didn't say that I expect others to not have a problem with it. But, we live in a republic grounded in cooperative democracy and we must balance the interests between individual persons who make up the citizenry and the collective interests of the People at large. I've suggested that this whole process with the TSA isn't perfect and that it may be improved. Perhaps use dogs, perhaps set a higher standard of professional that you'll hire to be a TSA agent, etc. etc. But, because people are offended or uncomfortable, even rightly so, does not in and of itself suggest that such invasive searches in one particular place of particular interest to the People, airports, should not be done.
• O-Trap

  

  It's a touchy subject, the topic of searches. People all have varying degrees of what they think is "over the line," so to use any one person's/group's opinion on where the line is should not be considered a good option.
  
  How valuable is my security? Can such a violation of my privacy be considered a breach of my security? Am I rolling the dice with this "security" (whatever the word means) either way?
  
  I, personally, would feel VERY violated by such an intrusion, and in that moment, would give up the "security" of not having an armed terrorist intending harm to those on the plane. The odds would be acceptable to me personally. Should someone else necessarily agree with me? No. That's up to them.
  
  Suppose, then, that my modesty is an integral part of my religiousity. Should my religious freedoms be infringed in that moment? There are some religious (antiquated, largely) sects where a woman is no longer desirable if certain parts of her body have been touched by someone else (in some cases including more than just the genitals). Consent doesn't even play a role in some of them, so rape or molestation (the latter would likely be used to describe what happens at the airports in these sects) is just as harmful to a woman in such a religion as consenting sex.
  
  Does your right to FELT (not necessarily "actual") safety trump my right to freedom of religion?
  
  This subject is far from able to be solved with soundbites and one-liners.
• FatHobbit

  

  I thought it was interesting that she thinks it's ok for other people (who fit the profile) to get that kind of treatment, but not for her.
• fish82

  

  All the stuff that T&A is doing would be fine if it actually did anything to keep us safer. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  FatHobbit;628176 wrote:I thought it was interesting that she thinks it's ok for other people (who fit the profile) to get that kind of treatment, but not for her.

  
  Considering the is no "one" profile, it is interesting.
• fish82

  

  ptown_trojans_1;628190 wrote:Considering the is no "one" profile, it is interesting.

  Considering that most if not all attempted/successful attacks on aircraft have been carried out by swarthy males between 25-40, I'd beg to differ.
• tk421

  

  fish82;628186 wrote:All the stuff that T&A is doing would be fine if it actually did anything to keep us safer. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

  
  Exactly. This stuff is for show, plain and simple. The fact of the matter is the TSA can not protect an airplane right now, despite what they might try to make the public believe. The fact that they might grope and search every person on that plane doesn't make it any safer than if they didn't. Let's list the ways that the public isn't safe on a plane that the TSA can't do shit about.
  
  1. No security to enter an airport. You literally are funneled into a narrow, crowded (sometimes with thousands of people on a holiday) spot to pass through security into their "sterile" area. You don't think that if a terrorist wanted to attack an airplane again, he couldn't just walk into an airport carrying a bomb and blow everyone at the security line up? Still feel safe?
  
  2. Baggage handlers, ground workers, cleaners, etc. etc. who all have access to the planes are not screened at all. You don't think Al-Qaeda couldn't put someone in one of those positions and put a bomb or multiple bombs on planes across the country? Not only is this true, a pilot recently filmed this very fact and the TSA harassed and threatened him for exposing this security flaw. As if the terrorists didn't already know. Not very safe, is it?
  
  3. Scanners are ineffective. They don't detect everything on a person. In fact, it would be extremely easy to pass something through one of the scanners and the TSA would have no idea. They don't see inside body cavities, they have trouble with some clothing items, any kind of prosthesis or medical device has to be hand searched. These x ray machines are being run by McDonalds rejects who get a 2 week "training' course. Would you go to the doctor and get an x ray or MRI from someone at McDonalds who had only 2 weeks to supposedly learn how to safely run the machine? I don't think so, you'd leave that doctor's office right quick, I'd bet. Yet it's OK for the TSA to irradiate people at airports?
  
  4. The TSA are not searching body cavities. If it's all about security and making the public feel safer, why stop before doing the obvious? The head of the TSA has publicly come out and said they won't be doing cavity searches? Why? I thought safety was important. Could it be that the TSA is doing everything it can get away with from the public and doesn't want to push further right now? If everyone's safety is the absolute primary reason for doing these new grope searches, why not search the one place that anyone could hide anything on their person? Just ask the prisons how much inmates can hide up there.
  
  5. Al Qaeda goon #1 could buy a rocket launcher and a supply of missiles and park himself on public property close to any runway in America and take pot shots at airplanes as they are taking off. In fact, this could happen simultaneously at multiple airports across the country. Where is the Transportation Safety Administration for that?
  
  Despite all this, you are far more likely by a huge huge huge percentage to die in a car crash driving to the airport than you ever are to die in a terrorist attack. Yet the American public is fine and dandy with giving away tax money and personal freedoms all in the illusion of safety.
  
  There are only 2 things and 2 things only to have happened since 9/11 that will make sure no airplane in America will ever get hijacked again. The TSA had nothing to do with any of them.
  
  1. Secured cockpit doors. If the terrorists can't get into the cockpit, they can't use the plane as a missile again. And that's what everyone in America is terrified of happening again. As I've shown above, any plane can be blown up at any time if a terrorist wanted to.
  
  2. Increased public awareness. 9/11 happened because before that the MO of hijackers was to land the plane somewhere and negotiate for hours and hours. No one ever used a plane as a missile to knock down buildings before. When the public finally realized what was happening on 9/11, they fought back a la Flight 93. No one will ever take over a plane again, I don't care what they sneak on board. You will have every single person on that plane stomping a hole in your body before you even reached the cockpit doors.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  fish82;628403 wrote:Considering that most if not all attempted/successful attacks on aircraft have been carried out by swarthy males between 25-40, I'd beg to differ.

  
  But, terrorism as a whole does not have 1 type.
  
  I'm not a fan of the TSA procedure either really (Use the scanners), but terrorism studies and literature reveal there is no one type. Bruce Hoffman, Center for Counter terrorism, FBI, CRS reports, etc.
• tk421

  

  ptown_trojans_1;628423 wrote:But, terrorism as a whole does not have 1 type.
  
  I'm not a fan of the TSA procedure either really (Use the scanners), but terrorism studies and literature reveal there is no one type. Bruce Hoffman, Center for Counter terrorism, FBI, CRS reports, etc.

  
  So, when's the last time a non Muslim tried to blow up an airplane? We are talking specifically about airplane terrorism. As I said earlier, no one is going to successfully hijack an airplane again in this country. I'd say that the fact that all of these threats from outside the U.S. just happen to come from Muslim countries, it might be a good idea for the TSA to *gasp* focus on those people from those areas. Instead of strip searching some 90 year old granny who has never left the country. The stupidity of the TSA security is outstanding.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  tk421;628437 wrote:So, when's the last time a non Muslim tried to blow up an airplane? We are talking specifically about airplane terrorism. As I said earlier, no one is going to successfully hijack an airplane again in this country. I'd say that the fact that all of these threats from outside the U.S. just happen to come from Muslim countries, it might be a good idea for the TSA to *gasp* focus on those people from those areas. Instead of strip searching some 90 year old granny who has never left the country. The stupidity of the TSA security is outstanding.

  
  I'd agree that hijacking are probably not going to happen. It was tried and succeeded. Now, the trick is to explode the plane with a suicide type attack.
  It is a double edged sword. If you just subject males, or profile, all off shoots of al Qaeda will do is use women, which they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan.
  The flip side is, planning for the what if is difficult and can quickly spin out of control. It's like a Catch -22. So, the government covers all the bases. Better to screen them all, than let the bomber slip through.
  
  I largely agree that the TSA pat downs are a failure. They are not needed, largely, if the technology is put into the screeners and we use our smart National Labs to really make them work.
  But, measures of security are needed to catch items that should not be on a plane. They just need to be better.
  
  But, the TSA is one of the last measures. It is the intelligence agencies that should prevent and stop an action from happening even before the bomber gets into line. That is where the real focus should be.
• tk421

  

  ptown_trojans_1;628452 wrote: But, the TSA is one of the last measures. It is the intelligence agencies that should prevent and stop an action from happening even before the bomber gets into line. That is where the real focus should be.

  
  Agreed. If a terrorist makes it to the airport, even if he is captured before getting on a plane, the system failed.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  tk421;628458 wrote:Agreed. If a terrorist makes it to the airport, even if he is captured before getting on a plane, the system failed.

  
  I wouldn't say failed, just punched through the first and second line of defense.
  
  The TSA and Air Marshalls are like the punter during kickoffs. It is their job to make sure the runner, that broke through the 1st and 2nd line of defense, does not get to the endzone. If the punter makes the tackle, then the defense did not fail. So, it is the TSA's job to ensure nothing gets in the endzone.
• fish82

  

  ptown_trojans_1;628452 wrote: But, the TSA is one of the last measures. It is the intelligence agencies that should prevent and stop an action from happening even before the bomber gets into line. That is where the real focus should be.

  Bingo.
• tk421

  

  ptown_trojans_1;628459 wrote:I wouldn't say failed, just punched through the first and second line of defense.
  
  The TSA and Air Marshalls are like the punter during kickoffs. It is their job to make sure the runner, that broke through the 1st and 2nd line of defense, does not get to the endzone. If the punter makes the tackle, then the defense did not fail. So, it is the TSA's job to ensure nothing gets in the endzone.

  I say failed because if they make it to the airport they don't have to get on a plane to blow thousands of people up. So, yes I'd say it failed.
• O-Trap

  

  tk421;628437 wrote:So, when's the last time a non Muslim tried to blow up an airplane? We are talking specifically about airplane terrorism. As I said earlier, no one is going to successfully hijack an airplane again in this country. I'd say that the fact that all of these threats from outside the U.S. just happen to come from Muslim countries, it might be a good idea for the TSA to *gasp* focus on those people from those areas. Instead of strip searching some 90 year old granny who has never left the country. The stupidity of the TSA security is outstanding.

  The problem is, you can't tell where someone is from just by looking at them. I have a friend whose family has been in this country on both sides for at least three generations (his great grandparents moved to the US), but because he resembles the side of his family that is Egyptian, and has a family name (first, middle, and last), it ends up not mattering that he's never so much as visited a foreign country or made an international phone call. Because his last name is Khalil, and he has a "well-done" complexion, he gets "randomly selected" every time he goes to the airport.
  
  On the flip side, I have a great friend who was born and raised in South Africa. His parents moved there before he was born, but they were from Wisconsin. He's your classic ginger.
  
  The US-born citizen gets singled out every time. The foreigner never has. Both are frequent fliers.
  
  The problem with trying to profile based on nation of origin is that you can't tell a person's nation of origin by looking at them.
  
  What I think would be better would be security that has been acutely trained in BEHAVIORAL profiling. I'd feel safer that way, anyway. Even beyond what we have now.
  

  tk421;628499 wrote:I say failed because if they make it to the airport they don't have to get on a plane to blow thousands of people up. So, yes I'd say it failed.

  
  It's a good point. Honestly, this might be the next strategy. All the attention is currently on who can get to the gates. Nobody is paying attention up until that point, it seems.
• dwccrew

  

  Honestly, I don't believe that is a true story. However, I agree with those that state we are no safer with the TSA performing the searches than if they didn't. I don't feel any safer than I did before. TSA and Homeland Security are such big wastes of money. They aren't keeping anyone safer and have failed numerous inspections and tests.
  
  Also, I don't agree with the idea that "she" didn't consent to this search or was forced. Every idiot in the world knows that you could potentially be searched. You don't like it, don't fly. Easy solution. Flying is certainly the most convenient way to travel, but not the only way. I may not agree with how this is handled, but I also have the choice not to fly.
• O-Trap

  

  dwccrew;628687 wrote:Honestly, I don't believe that is a true story. However, I agree with those that state we are no safer with the TSA performing the searches than if they didn't. I don't feel any safer than I did before. TSA and Homeland Security are such big wastes of money. They aren't keeping anyone safer and have failed numerous inspections and tests.
  
  Also, I don't agree with the idea that "she" didn't consent to this search or was forced. Every idiot in the world knows that you could potentially be searched. You don't like it, don't fly. Easy solution. Flying is certainly the most convenient way to travel, but not the only way. I may not agree with how this is handled, but I also have the choice not to fly.

  
  Well, if she's trying to get to Europe, it might be the only way to get there (do they still do boats for trans-Atlantic travel?). I don't know whether or not the story is true, but I DO know (and work with) a woman who, if her genitals were ever touched by another person, except in the case of a doctor, after the cultural "coming of age," she would be considered disqualified to be a wife by those of the same upbringing. Being from Eastern Europe, that's a problem. On one hand, if she doesn't fly, she doesn't see family. On the other, if she does fly, she might end up being disgraced upon getting to the family. It's a catch-22.
  
  And again, the two people I mention above are evidence that profiling based on physical appearance doesn't work, because we live in a cultural smorgasbord, so how someone looks tells us nothing about where they're from.
  
  There does need to be a solution. The current searches are not it.
• Glory Days

  

  I don't think you can say we are no safer than before because we are safer. But nothing is full proof and I think that is what people expect. Say on a scale of 1-10 we were a 5, now we are maybe 7. Just because our system isn't 100% sae doesn't mean we shouldnt try to improve it whenever we can.
• jmog

  ptown_trojans_1;628190 wrote:Considering the is no "one" profile, it is interesting.

  
  Anyone who doesn't believe there are profiles do not understand forensic science and the mathematics of statistical models.
  
  I'm sorry, but there most certainly ARE valid profiles of terrorists, just like there are valid profiles of serial killers.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  jmog;629530 wrote:Anyone who doesn't believe there are profiles do not understand forensic science and the mathematics of statistical models.
  
  I'm sorry, but there most certainly ARE valid profiles of terrorists, just like there are valid profiles of serial killers.

  
  Sort of, but you have to really narrow what type of terrorism you are talking about. Even then, the profile is very general. Take for example Islamic or jihad terrorism in the U.S. There has been white men, black men, white women, Arabs, Somali, middle class, and lower econ individuals that have committed terrorists acts. Kind of hard to box them in.
  A CRS Report on the subject.
  Long: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/R41416.pdf
  
  In terms of planes, there is Richard Reid as well as Mutallab, so a white and black male. Both from different social classes. They do fit a "model", but a broad one.
  
  Again, Bruce Hoffman and the National Counterrorism Center, as well as the West Point Counter terrorism Center also speak about this.
• stlouiedipalma

  That's a nice story, but I don't for one minute believe that it ever happened.
• O-Trap

  

  ptown_trojans_1;629542 wrote:Sort of, but you have to really narrow what type of terrorism you are talking about. Even then, the profile is very general. Take for example Islamic or jihad terrorism in the U.S. There has been white men, black men, white women, Arabs, Somali, middle class, and lower econ individuals that have committed terrorists acts. Kind of hard to box them in.
  A CRS Report on the subject.
  Long: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/R41416.pdf
  
  In terms of planes, there is Richard Reid as well as Mutallab, so a white and black male. Both from different social classes. They do fit a "model", but a broad one.
  
  Again, Bruce Hoffman and the National Counterrorism Center, as well as the West Point Counter terrorism Center also speak about this.

  
  I would suggest that a terrorist profile is more a psychological and behavioral one than one of appearance.