Isreal, help for the ignorant.

• tuskytuffguy

  Ok, I'd like a little help understanding why our government is so protective of Israel. How/why did it start? Why does it continue? I'm not asking for anyone's personal views, just some understanding on the situation. Thanks!
• Tiernan

  Israel represents the last stronghold of Democracy in a Middle East dominated by Islamic Kingdoms. The nation of Zion (Israel) was granted it's independence from Britain in 1948 and like the USA there is still a feeling of superiority over anything British. Israel literaly means "Struggle of God" and no nation on earth struggles more to just exist with dozens of its neighboring countries plotting their destruction every single F'n day. Israelis are some of the toughest people on earth and usually don't need much help in kicking Muslim ass...but every once in awhile they need some assistance, and that is where the USA has an obligation to protect and preserve a race of people who are our first line of defense against the rest of the towel heads who would love nothing more than to see our Way of Life end. Long live the Mossad.
• I Wear Pants

  Because we need a highly militarized ally in the area in case we decide to start attacking some non third-world country over there.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  Cultural, religious, historic, regional, military, and democratic reasons mainly.
• tuskytuffguy

  See, here's my thing. I've always thought it had something to do with it being the so-called "religious promised land" as far as christians go, and the U.S. being a largely christian country, we feel a need to protect them. And I seriously hope it's not for that reason.
• majorspark

  

  tuskytuffguy;413147 wrote:See, here's my thing. I've always thought it had something to do with it being the so-called "religious promised land" as far as christians go, and the U.S. being a largely christian country, we feel a need to protect them. And I seriously hope it's not for that reason.

  
  Religion is a part of it. ptown mentioned that aspect in his post. Its not the only reason but it is one.
• sleeper

  

  ptown_trojans_1;412862 wrote:Cultural, religious, historic, regional, military, and democratic reasons mainly.

  
  All this, but I bolded probably the biggest reason. Israel is probably one of the strongest militaries in the world(thanks to us), and if all hell ever broke lose in the middle east, we'd have a super strong and incredibly loyal ally.
• Paladin

  I have no problem with ptown's first statement as it was for many reasons early on. However, it has evolved over time to now a question of money. Campaign contributions, corporate interests and the wealthy Jews in the U.S. forcing politicans to kiss azz. The time for peace was years ago before the matter became too complicated by money, power & wealth. The Arabs have been badly mistreated and the Arab world will never forget. When they brought on many minor early wars & got their butts kicked, the time was ripe for a peace treaty and separate states. Now, it won't happen and this will go on until one side wipes out the other. Israel has expanded beyond reason and refuses to vacate land that would go into a two state solution. Israel had a right to exist. They had no right to expand. And the U.S. has lost control over Israel even with our continued funding of them. They spy on us and are one of the reasons the Muslim world has come after us after decades of frustration & us constantly taking Israel side. It will come back to bite us again.
• Footwedge

  Tiernan;412790 wrote:Israel represents the last stronghold of Democracy in a Middle East dominated by Islamic Kingdoms. The nation of Zion (Israel) was granted it's independence from Britain in 1948 and like the USA there is still a feeling of superiority over anything British. Israel literaly means "Struggle of God" and no nation on earth struggles more to just exist with dozens of its neighboring countries plotting their destruction every single F'n day. Israelis are some of the toughest people on earth and usually don't need much help in kicking Muslim ass...but every once in awhile they need some assistance, and that is where the USA has an obligation to protect and preserve a race of people who are our first line of defense against the rest of the towel heads who would love nothing more than to see our Way of Life end. Long live the Mossad.

  "Last stronghold of democracy"? There's a lot of democracies in the middle east.
• IggyPride00

  

  "Last stronghold of democracy"? There's a lot of democracies in the middle east.

  Instead of "Last stronghold of democracy," it should have said "Last stronghold of Apartheid" as that is the most apt description of what is going on in Israel today.
• I Wear Pants

  But but but...the Arabs don't like them so they must be good. Right?
• BCBulldog

  

  IggyPride00;413331 wrote:Instead of "Last stronghold of democracy," it should have said "Last stronghold of Apartheid" as that is the most apt description of what is going on in Israel today.

  
  That is a load of anti-semitic crap.
• majorspark

  

  Paladin;413234 wrote:I have no problem with ptown's first statement as it was for many reasons early on. However, it has evolved over time to now a question of money. Campaign contributions, corporate interests and the wealthy Jews in the U.S. forcing politicans to kiss azz. The time for peace was years ago before the matter became too complicated by money, power & wealth.

  
  
  I knew it would not be long before someone came along and claimed the Jews have the federal government bought and paid for with their Jew money. Hitler thought the same of the Jews. Too much money and influence in the German government. He got enough of his people to buy it too. They idea that a people with a population of around 13 million scattered around the globe can carry such a great influence around the world is ludicrous.
  

  Paladin;413234 wrote:The Arabs have been badly mistreated and the Arab world will never forget.

  I agree with this. They have been mistreated at times by Israel, the West, Russians, and their own leaders. But they are no strangers to handing out a little mistreatment themselves.
  

  Paladin;413234 wrote:When they brought on many minor early wars & got their butts kicked, the time was ripe for a peace treaty and separate states. Now, it won't happen and this will go on until one side wipes out the other.

  This world is governed by the aggressive use of force. Political, economic, and military. We all can have warm fuzzies on how everyone should just play nice in the sandbox, but it just don't work that way. You are 100% correct though this thing will not end until one side wipes the other one out militarily.
  
  

  Paladin;413234 wrote:Israel has expanded beyond reason and refuses to vacate land that would go into a two state solution. Israel had a right to exist. They had no right to expand. And the U.S. has lost control over Israel even with our continued funding of them. They spy on us and are one of the reasons the Muslim world has come after us after decades of frustration & us constantly taking Israel side. It will come back to bite us again.

  Has the USA expanded beyond reason? Did we have a right to expand? We herded native Americans onto worthless pieces of land. They are still their today. Israelis have been born, raised, are raising their own children, and in some cases their grandchildren on what is defined as "occupied" land. You do know that a large number of Mexicans believe the American Southwest is "occupied" land.
  
  They will no sooner leave that land without being forced off with a massive shedding of blood, than we would leave ours without the same. It is now all that they and we know. It is now their homes and it is now our homes. It is a brutal reality that cannot be overlooked.
• majorspark

  

  Footwedge;413305 wrote:"Last stronghold of democracy"? There's a lot of democracies in the middle east.

  
  Yes and now we have one more, Iraq.
• IggyPride00

  

  BCBulldog;413382 wrote:That is a load of anti-semitic crap.

  
  Not at all. I do applaud you for automatically jumping to that though rather than debating on the merits of the claim.
  
  Israel and its defenders love to drape themselves with the "you're anti-semitic" cloak whenever anyone questions their behavior, because it is easier to set-up a straw man that "everyone hates Jews" than it is to acknowledge the reality that Israel is establishing a de facto apartheid state.
• BCBulldog

  

  IggyPride00;413518 wrote:Not at all. I do applaud you for automatically jumping to that though rather than debating on the merits of the claim.
  
  Israel and its defenders love to drape themselves with the "you're anti-semitic" cloak whenever anyone questions their behavior, because it is easier to set-up a straw man that "everyone hates Jews" than it is to acknowledge the reality that Israel is establishing a de facto apartheid state.

  
  Rationalize it how you want, but baseless attacks of Israel by accusing them of apartheid reeks of antisemitism.
• Footwedge

  majorspark;413488 wrote:Yes and now we have one more, Iraq.

  
  LOL. What democracy? A country that has 50.000 occupiers playing referee? That's one place that will never have free elections if we leave. That's why we stay...and stay...and stay...and stay.
• IggyPride00

  

  Has the USA expanded beyond reason? Did we have a right to expand? We herded native Americans onto worthless pieces of land. They are still their today. Israelis have been born, raised, are raising their own children, and in some cases their grandchildren on what is defined as "occupied" land. You do know that a large number of Mexicans believe the American Southwest is "occupied" land.

  You're making the apartheid argument for me, so you must be an anti-Semite too according to some on this board.
  
  In America, we seized the native Americans land, but they were granted full U.S citizenship by virtue of being born here. Same goes for every other territory we have annexed. All those people essentially became citizens of the U.S., and get everything that comes with being such.
  
  Ehud Barak, Israeli defense minister laid it out quite well.
  

  Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak used the analogy when speaking in a national security conference in Israel. According to Barak, unless Israel makes peace with the Palestinians it will be faced with either a state with no Jewish *majority or an "apartheid" regime. "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic," Barak said. "If this bloc of millions of *Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

  I guess Ehud is a self-hating Jew as Bibi would say, since he can't technically be an anit-Semite.
• majorspark

  

  Footwedge;413556 wrote:LOL. What democracy? A country that has 50.000 occupiers playing referee? That's one place that will never have free elections if we leave. That's why we stay...and stay...and stay...and stay.

  
  I knew that one would pull you out of the woodwork.
  
  I am skeptical about a lasting democracy as well. But many felt the same way about Japan. The middle east can't hold a candle to the militancy of 1930's/40's Japan. And look at them today. Wait we are still there subsidizing their defense. Oh never mind.
  
  Seriously though. You know my opinion of our perpetual deployments overseas. But practically speaking do you ever think the Japanese people would give up the democratic form of government they have grown used too? I would expect the same from the Iraqi people.
• Footwedge

  majorspark;413607 wrote:I knew that one would pull you out of the woodwork.
  
  I am skeptical about a lasting democracy as well. But many felt the same way about Japan. The middle east can't hold a candle to the militancy of 1930's/40's Japan. And look at them today. Wait we are still there subsidizing their defense. Oh never mind.
  
  Seriously though. You know my opinion of our perpetual deployments overseas. But practically speaking do you ever think the Japanese people would give up the democratic form of government they have grown used too? I would expect the same from the Iraqi people.

  I believe that the millenium long wars between Shia and Sunnis will trump any attempt at democracy. You have stated your case that virtually all societies are brutal...and only settle their differences through war. I think that your understanding of the human species is exaggerated...at least I am hopeful that the human species is capable of evolving, but I think it definitely applies to Iraq.
  
  If we left, Then Maqtabi Al whatshisname will kick start a brand new civil war....and a new Saddam will be in place.
• Footwedge

  IggyPride00;413572 wrote:You're making the apartheid argument for me, so you must be an anti-Semite too according to some on this board.
  
  In America, we seized the native Americans land, but they were granted full U.S citizenship by virtue of being born here. Same goes for every other territory we have annexed. All those people essentially became citizens of the U.S., and get everything that comes with being such.
  
  Ehud Barak, Israeli defense minister laid it out quite well.
  
  
  
  I guess Ehud is a self-hating Jew as Bibi would say, since he can't technically be an anit-Semite.

  By many people's definition of antisemitism, the majority of American Jewish people would also be classified as anti Semites in that they are liberals...and can't stand what the Likud Party stands for.
• majorspark

  

  Footwedge;413620 wrote:I believe that the millenium long wars between Shia and Sunnis will trump any attempt at democracy. You have stated your case that virtually all societies are brutal...and only settle their differences through war. I think that your understanding of the human species is exaggerated...at least I am hopeful that the human species is capable of evolving, but I think it definitely applies to Iraq.
  
  If we left, Then Maqtabi Al whatshisname will kick start a brand new civil war....and a new Saddam will be in place.

  
  Definitely so if we left today. Civil War would likely be swift. But hey maybe if we stay long enough the Iraqi's will evolve into peaceful coexistence. At least for a season.
  
  I understand that just because a nation is a "democracy" and not ruled by a King or dictator does not make them immune to using violence to achieve its objectives. Foreign or domestic. We are no strangers to that here in our short 200+ years of existence. Our nation has seen quite a bit of violence since we arrived here.
  
  I wish I could share in your hope that the human race will one day evolve into eternal peaceful coexistence. But I can't. Thousands of years of human depravity tell me otherwise. I would no sooner believe murders, rapes, thefts, you name it will evolve out of the human race, than state sanctioned acts of the same kind by the state, which is an institution governed by men.
  
  No Foot it will take a force greater than mankind to end the depravity of mankind. It will not evolve away.
• majorspark

  

  Footwedge;413627 wrote:By many people's definition of antisemitism, the majority of American Jewish people would also be classified as anti Semites in that they are liberals...and can't stand what the Likud Party stands for.

  
  This is true. Especially in the comforts of America. Although I wonder if they would hold the same opinion if they lived in Israel. Something tells me their opinion would temper if they lived in Sderot subjected to Hamas rockets. Or in Karmiel, Nahariyya, or any city in range of Hezbollah.
• I Wear Pants

  majorspark;413607 wrote:I knew that one would pull you out of the woodwork.
  
  I am skeptical about a lasting democracy as well. But many felt the same way about Japan. The middle east can't hold a candle to the militancy of 1930's/40's Japan. And look at them today. Wait we are still there subsidizing their defense. Oh never mind.
  
  Seriously though. You know my opinion of our perpetual deployments overseas. But practically speaking do you ever think the Japanese people would give up the democratic form of government they have grown used too? I would expect the same from the Iraqi people.

  That's the thing though. Iraq isn't Japan.
  
  Some people say they would never give up disabilities they have either because it's "part of who they are" but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been better off never having them in the first place.
• Tiernan

  Footwedge;413305 wrote:"Last stronghold of democracy"? There's a lot of democracies in the middle east.

  
  Name ONE other than Egypt (and they already learned their lesson not to Fk with Israel) and I'll show you a Govt pretending to be democratic as they continually control and manipulate every election. And if Israel is apartheid because they are trying to preserve a race of 7 million people against 400 million crazies trying to blow them to smithereens every day, well then I will keep sending my checks to B'nai B'rith until every last rag head with an AK-47 and pipe bomb is eradicated from the sandbox...because that kind of apartheid is helping to keep the Islamic nut-bags from killing us in the streets of America.