Obama: A pragmatic moderate faces the 'socialist' smear

• ptown_trojans_1

  

  Little Danny wrote: I have a questions for all the people who find Obama to be a moderate. Is there someone in American politics who you feel is too far out there as far as being a "socialist" or a radical leftist?
  
  I often see people come to Obama's defense on issues but never see anyone point to an example of someone who is. Some made the point earlier that Woodrow Wilson or FDR were radicals (I don't necessarily disagree). Heck, for just the sake of definition of the term radical so were are founding fathers and Abrahama Lincoln. I just want to see someone from the left side of the aisle show me someone, today, admit that someone is over the top on their views.

  1. I'm saying liberally moderate. Think of a scale of 1-10, 1 being very liberal 10 being very conservative, with 5 being a moderate.
  Obama is a 4 to me. Just left of center, while very liberal in some areas (economic) he is "conservative" in others (foreign policy), those balance out, making him a 4 in my book.
  
  2. Someone over the top, I'll give you a few:
  Pelosi
  Reid
  Russ Feingold
  Carl Levin
  and I'm sure half the D's in the House
  
  Just off the top of my head.
• Bigdogg

  believer wrote: I don't know why liberals hide from the word "socialist." It is what it is. If you believe in it then have the balls to admit it and defend your position on it.
  
  The pathetic thing is liberals not only hide from the word "socialist" they also steer clear of the dreaded "L" word.

  You have know clue what a socialist is. You wouldn't know one even if you tripped over them.
• majorspark

  

  Bigdogg wrote:

  believer wrote: I don't know why liberals hide from the word "socialist." It is what it is. If you believe in it then have the balls to admit it and defend your position on it.
  
  The pathetic thing is liberals not only hide from the word "socialist" they also steer clear of the dreaded "L" word.

  You have know clue what a socialist is. You wouldn't know one even if you tripped over them.

  You appear to be clued in. Please share.
• Little Danny

  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote:

  Little Danny wrote: I have a questions for all the people who find Obama to be a moderate. Is there someone in American politics who you feel is too far out there as far as being a "socialist" or a radical leftist?
  
  I often see people come to Obama's defense on issues but never see anyone point to an example of someone who is. Some made the point earlier that Woodrow Wilson or FDR were radicals (I don't necessarily disagree). Heck, for just the sake of definition of the term radical so were are founding fathers and Abrahama Lincoln. I just want to see someone from the left side of the aisle show me someone, today, admit that someone is over the top on their views.

  1. I'm saying liberally moderate. Think of a scale of 1-10, 1 being very liberal 10 being very conservative, with 5 being a moderate.
  Obama is a 4 to me. Just left of center, while very liberal in some areas (economic) he is "conservative" in others (foreign policy), those balance out, making him a 4 in my book.
  
  2. Someone over the top, I'll give you a few:
  Pelosi
  Reid
  Russ Feingold
  Carl Levin
  and I'm sure half the D's in the House
  
  Just off the top of my head.

  Thanks for your candid reply P-Town. I expected you would reply and frankly you were not my target audience as I see you as a moderate with a slightly left leaning social bend (granted you were the OP). I want to hear from one of the hard core dems on here.
• majorspark

  

  There is little doubt in my mind that Obama is a left wing idealog. If he possessed the powers of a dictator, no doubt he would bring his leftist ideology to fruition. The balance of power our founders laid forth in the constitution has so far to this day prevented any one man from forcing his political ideology on the whole nation.
  
  I can listen to countess speeches Reagan gave that would give me a political erection. Yet he was unable to govern accordingly. Do I think he was disingenuous? No. The balance of power prevented him from exerting his political will. The same with Obama. The best he can do is within his power tug federal power his way. Ptown is correct in that so far Obama is governing left of center. Only because that is what is within his power. He is unable to govern with unlimited power to implement his political ideology. History proves those in power to seek more of it. It is right for those to sound the alarm. It only takes the right circumstances to instill enough fear in the populous to surrender power to their leaders. When that power is concentrated it can easily be taken from the masses.
  
  If I were to pick the presidents to this point in history that acted most radically it would be Lincoln and FDR in a very close second.
• Classyposter58

  

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Care to refute the arguments instead of just laughing it off gentlemen?

  Ok I will. He isn't a moderate because everyone of his plans have been very liberal and he has not done one thing I would consider partisan at all. I will call him a moderate when he crosses the line but it seems all he has done is strengthen the hate between the parties
• I Wear Pants

  majorspark wrote: There is little doubt in my mind that Obama is a left wing idealog. If he possessed the powers of a dictator, no doubt he would bring his leftist ideology to fruition. The balance of power our founders laid forth in the constitution has so far to this day prevented any one man from forcing his political ideology on the whole nation.
  
  I can listen to countess speeches Reagan gave that would give me a political erection. Yet he was unable to govern accordingly. Do I think he was disingenuous? No. The balance of power prevented him from exerting his political will. The same with Obama. The best he can do is within his power tug federal power his way. Ptown is correct in that so far Obama is governing left of center. Only because that is what is within his power. He is unable to govern with unlimited power to implement his political ideology. History proves those in power to seek more of it. It is right for those to sound the alarm. It only takes the right circumstances to instill enough fear in the populous to surrender power to their leaders. When that power is concentrated it can easily be taken from the masses.
  
  If I were to pick the presidents to this point in history that acted most radically it would be Lincoln and FDR in a very close second.

  A good example of using fear to make people surrender power and rights is the Patriot Act and the Iraq war (the speed at which we entered into the conflict in particular).
  
  "The terrorists are gonna get ya" has been used to justify too many shitty decisions.
  
  I don't entirely disagree with the bolded. I'd include Andrew Jackson in that as well and for his foreign policy G.W. Bush. Though Jackson was probably more radical than all of them.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  People didn't mess with Andy Jack. Or they'd get dead, real quick!
• believer

  

  Bigdogg wrote:You have know clue what a socialist is. You wouldn't know one even if you tripped over them.

  Enlighten me. Care to give me an example of a bona fide socialist? You can't because anything to the right of Karl Marx is a fascist Nazi to socialists like yourself.
• BoatShoes

  It just seems to me that conservativism has shifted further to the right...I mean, if we look at the health care bill that was passed...it looks similar to what Bob Dole wanted in the 90's and what Richard Nixon might have supported in the 60's.
  
  This pretty much sums it up for me.
  
  Justice John Paul Stevens was seen as the corner stone of the liberal wing of the Supreme Court (along with Souter, another Republican appointee) but he was appointed by Gerald Ford, a Conservative.
  
  When asked why he's become more liberal over the years he replied; "My views haven't changed. The people around me have."
  
  Obama to me represents a strong, but not radical, shift from this general trend of conservativism and that's why he might appear to be more "leftist"...But to me, the liberals of the 60's and early 70's and then even in the earlier years of the last century are more liberal than president obama.
  
  Even JFK...Conservatives like to say that he would be "conservative" today (because he cut marginal rates from what, 90% to uh 70%??? That's waaay high.)...Heck, he supported eliminating the deferral of tax completely through foreign business entities in international taxation...a much more anti-taxpayer view than the current Subpart F of the code.
• believer

  

  BoatShoes wrote:Obama to me represents a strong, but not radical, shift from this general trend of conservativism and that's why he might appear to be more "leftist"...But to me, the liberals of the 60's and early 70's and then even in the earlier years of the last century are more liberal than president obama.

  Could it be that after 50+ years of incessant liberalism that has infected our governance, a significant portion of the American electorate has finally opened its eyes to the ever increasing size of an intrusive federal government - a government that has no clue of the importance of balancing income against outgo and a government that has slowly but definitely degraded personal liberties in the name of "protecting us" from ourselves thus spawning a revival of true conservatism?
  
  Make no mistake about it...Obama's view on government is clearly highly liberal regardless of the historical time frame and a view that an ever growing number of Americans are seeing with greater skepticism and opposition.
  
  For decades our public education system, media, entertainment industry, labor unions, etc. have indoctrinated us on the notion that Big Government is the answer to all our social issues. Fortunately more and more Americans are realizing that Big Government is a Big Part of the Big Problem.
• CenterBHSFan

  

  believer wrote: Could it be that after 50+ years of incessant liberalism that has infected our governance, a significant portion of the American electorate has finally opened its eyes to the ever increasing size of an intrusive federal government - a government that has no clue of the importance of balancing income against outgo and a government that has slowly but definitely degraded personal liberties in the name of "protecting us" from ourselves thus spawning a revival of true conservatism?

  
  Andrew Jackson is the only President who took care of business as far as that ^^^ is concerned.
• believer

  

  CenterBHSFan wrote:Andrew Jackson is the only President who took care of business as far as that ^^^ is concerned.

  Even Republican-controlled White Houses and Congresses are not exempt from the liberalism that has occurred over the past 50+ years. That's part of the problem to be sure.
  
  All I'm saying is these folks who think Obama is no more liberal than any other POTUS in that time frame is either politically blind or delusional - or both. BHO's ties to the Chicago Political Machine, his past associations with self-avowed socialists/Marxists, and his own political activities/actions clearly demonstrate his highly liberal/socialist beliefs. Period...end of story.
• BCSbunk

  Little Danny wrote: I have a questions for all the people who find Obama to be a moderate. Is there someone in American politics who you feel is too far out there as far as being a "socialist" or a radical leftist?
  
  I often see people come to Obama's defense on issues but never see anyone point to an example of someone who is. Some made the point earlier that Woodrow Wilson or FDR were radicals (I don't necessarily disagree). Heck, for just the sake of definition of the term radical so were are founding fathers and Abrahama Lincoln. I just want to see someone from the left side of the aisle show me someone, today, admit that someone is over the top on their views.

  No, I see it the other way around. Too many authoritarian right wingers in our government.
  
  There is no one too far to the left in politics in this country.
  
  Far too many are to the right.
  
  The US is center right as a nation so the bias is easy for those trapped in that view. They see everything as liberal even if it is center.
  
  Go to forums with lots of foreign population from Europe and they certainly do not think of Obama as a liberal.
  
  Only xenophobes who think that every country but the US is socialist or communist are so deluded to think Obama is socialist or really even liberal.
• Little Danny

  

  Thanks for your honest answer Bunk. I will put you down as one who finds no one in US politics liberal enough.
• believer

  

  BCSbunk wrote:Only xenophobes who think that every country but the US is socialist or communist are so deluded to think Obama is socialist or really even liberal.

  Only America-hating domestic ultra-liberals who pine for European-style socialism are delusional enough to think Obama isn't socialist or at least highly liberal.
• BCSbunk

  believer wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:Only xenophobes who think that every country but the US is socialist or communist are so deluded to think Obama is socialist or really even liberal.

  Only America-hating domestic ultra-liberals who pine for European-style socialism are delusional enough to think Obama isn't socialist or at least highly liberal.

  What policies has Obama put into place that are European style?
  
  Healthcare? Are you kidding there is not even a public option so that loses.
  
  The facts are clear he has not implemented European style anything therefore he is not liberal.
  
  As you post just shows you think the rest of the world is socialist how utterly laughable.
  
  Socialism means state owned not private owned and most of Europe has privately run companies not state owned.
  
  http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_s4XiZIUYnIs/R6icBx00N5I/AAAAAAAAAEY/EVFUjmIwYzg/s1600-h/the_world_according_to_americans.jpg
• fish82

  

  BCSbunk wrote:

  believer wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:Only xenophobes who think that every country but the US is socialist or communist are so deluded to think Obama is socialist or really even liberal.

  Only America-hating domestic ultra-liberals who pine for European-style socialism are delusional enough to think Obama isn't socialist or at least highly liberal.

  What policies has Obama put into place that are European style?
  
  Healthcare? Are you kidding there is not even a public option so that loses.
  
  The facts are clear he has not implemented European style anything therefore he is not liberal.
  
  As you post just shows you think the rest of the world is socialist how utterly laughable.
  
  Socialism means state owned not private owned and most of Europe has privately run companies not state owned.
  
  http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_s4XiZIUYnIs/R6icBx00N5I/AAAAAAAAAEY/EVFUjmIwYzg/s1600-h/the_world_according_to_americans.jpg

  GM...means of production owned and run by the government. Class dismissed.
• BCSbunk

  fish82 wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:

  believer wrote:

  BCSbunk wrote:Only xenophobes who think that every country but the US is socialist or communist are so deluded to think Obama is socialist or really even liberal.

  Only America-hating domestic ultra-liberals who pine for European-style socialism are delusional enough to think Obama isn't socialist or at least highly liberal.

  What policies has Obama put into place that are European style?
  
  Healthcare? Are you kidding there is not even a public option so that loses.
  
  The facts are clear he has not implemented European style anything therefore he is not liberal.
  
  As you post just shows you think the rest of the world is socialist how utterly laughable.
  
  Socialism means state owned not private owned and most of Europe has privately run companies not state owned.
  
  http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_s4XiZIUYnIs/R6icBx00N5I/AAAAAAAAAEY/EVFUjmIwYzg/s1600-h/the_world_according_to_americans.jpg

  GM...means of production owned and run by the government. Class dismissed.

  Swing and a Miss..
  
  Not completely state owned and Socialism mean s NO PRIVATE business either the state or the workers own it.
  
  We are not socialist in this country and Obama is certainly not socialist and not even left of center politics.
  
  Extreme right wingers are hiliarious.
  
  Anything left of them is liberal. What a myopic view of the country and the world.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Pot meet kettle.
  
  "Extreme right wingers" is a term you throw around a LOT on here -- but I don't see a whole lot of that group being represented here or in our government.
  
  I'd like to know where you are finding all these "extreme right wingers" to be residing.
  
  Oh and your mind doesn't count as a real place.
• BCSbunk

  Writerbuckeye wrote: Pot meet kettle.
  
  "Extreme right wingers" is a term you throw around a LOT on here -- but I don't see a whole lot of that group being represented here or in our government.
  
  I'd like to know where you are finding all these "extreme right wingers" to be residing.
  
  Oh and your mind doesn't count as a real place.

  Of course you don't you are in it. The fox does not smell its own hole.
  
  As someone who is left of the center mark on most political tests America is a Center right country as a whole.
  
  Plenty on here who are extreme right wing.
  
  Not the most extreme right wing but some are heading there.
  
  Obama is a RIGHT WING Politician.
  
  Anyone who thinks he is left of center in world politics is EXTREME RIGHT WING.
• BCSbunk

  A graph of left and right wing politicians.
  
  
  
  Ralph Nader is LEFT WING
  
  Dennis Kucinich is LEFT WING
  
  Obama is RIGHT WING.
  
  I am LEFT WING I do not and will not claim his authoritarian RIGHT WING NONSENSE as anything that I stand for.
• ptown_trojans_1

  

  Who came up with that graph, what were their metrics and did they place anyone else on the graph?
• BCSbunk

  ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Who came up with that graph, what were their metrics and did they place anyone else on the graph?

  Yes and not only American politics are included New Zealand Australian and UK are also listed.
  
  http://www.politicalcompass.org/
  
  In the left hand column you can check for different politicians.
• Writerbuckeye

  

  Thanks for proving my point (that your're blind).
  
  I am about as removed from being "an extreme right winger" as most on here -- yet you lump me in that classification.
  
  And if you're looking at things from a libertarian viewpoint, I can see where Obama would be considered authoritarian on such a graph -- but I think he skews a little more left than he's been allowed to be so far because of the constraints of American politics at this time.