Given the number of Tribe fans on here, I am curious what the general consensus is on the announcement that the logo is getting the axe from uniforms after 2018.
I know this is being discussed in the Tribe offseason thread, but I'm curious to see actual numbers.
Don't necessarily care that it's being removed but this country has become EXTREMELY oversensitive. When the guy who created this logo (died not that long ago), came up with it, I'm sure he wasn't thinking "he he he, I'm gonna stick it to the old Indian nation by coming up with this racist depiction that will offend the whole group!" No, it's a freakin LOGO. When I see it it, I don't think "ha ha, we're really making fun of you guys!" It's a LOGO.
Indifferent.
posted by BR1986FBDon't necessarily care that it's being removed but this country has become EXTREMELY oversensitive. When the guy who created this logo (died not that long ago), came up with it, I'm sure he wasn't thinking "he he he, I'm gonna stick it to the old Indian nation by coming up with this racist depiction that will offend the whole group!" No, it's a freakin LOGO. When I see it it, I don't think "ha ha, we're really making fun of you guys!" It's a LOGO.
Of course he didn't think that...it was 70 years ago. Jim Crow laws were still being enforced. Things change. If it's just a logo, no one should have an issue with it not being on a uniform.
posted by BR1986FBDon't necessarily care that it's being removed but this country has become EXTREMELY oversensitive. When the guy who created this logo (died not that long ago), came up with it, I'm sure he wasn't thinking "he he he, I'm gonna stick it to the old Indian nation by coming up with this racist depiction that will offend the whole group!" No, it's a freakin LOGO. When I see it it, I don't think "ha ha, we're really making fun of you guys!" It's a LOGO.
Sure. But that does go both ways. You're (not you, specifically) upset it's being removed? Well, it's only a logo.
I'm indifferent because few things offend me, but I'm also not a fan of the Indians.
posted by Fab4RunnerOf course he didn't think that...it was 70 years ago. Jim Crow laws were still being enforced. Things change. If it's just a logo, no one should have an issue with it not being on a uniform.
yeah, things do change--good observation---however, if it is just a logo, then why the outrage? is it Native Americans who are truly offended by this, or mainly some liberal white folk who love the consternation associated with these "issues" (and who also think all statues pre-1900 should be taken down as well)....I voted upset/annoyed, but not for the poll question as it was presented.
I'll stick with the "old school".
posted by vball10setor mainly some liberal white folk who love the consternation associated with these "issues" (and who also think all statues pre-1900 should be taken down as well)....
Spot on. Agree 100%. I don't see too many native Americans protesting this down at the Jake. What I did see, and I think the mofo should've been clubbed like a baby seal, is some jackass, dressed up in red face and an indian head dress making fun of the few protesters that were there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Indians_name_and_logo_controversy
It’s long overdue.
I don’t care the logo is gone. I still can buy it and wear it. The team needed to move on, as the logo is insanely racist. I don’t look at people who wear it as racists or anything, but a team representing a city needs to be cognizant of that, and thus get rid of it.
I hope they don’t move on from the team name, though understand if they did that as well. I hope they stick with “Tribe” if they do.
I’ll obviously be a fan of whoever plays baseball in Cleveland. Just hope they try their best to keep the historical name close/related if they do decide to move on.
posted by vball10setyeah, things do change--good observation---however, if it is just a logo, then why the outrage? is it Native Americans who are truly offended by this, or mainly some liberal white folk who love the consternation associated with these "issues" (and who also think all statues pre-1900 should be taken down as well)....I voted upset/annoyed, but not for the poll question as it was presented.
A little bit of effort would make it clear that it's not just liberal white folk. Native Americans have been against this sort of stuff for a long time.
^^^Clip is from 1972.
Here is what National Congress of American Indians said in response:
WASHINGTON, D.C. | NCAI applauds today’s announcement by Major League Baseball that the league’s Cleveland franchise will retire the Chief Wahoo mascot and logo in 2019. NCAI has advocated for the eradication of offensive Native American-themed imagery from sports since 1968, and today’s announcement represents an important milestone for Indian Country in this effort.
P.S. FWIW as a member of the tribe of liberal white folk I voted "No Opinion On Its Removal"
I'm sure all those liberal whites were behind the remove of South Dakota's logo AND name.
I wouldn't say "upset," but more annoyed they succumbed to people who mostly have no skin in the game. I don't think the intention of Chief Wahoo or the team name was to be racist. I think you get in murky water when you paint your face and try to mock tribes, but overall when people dress up as tribe members I think they do so as respect. If you follow American history, native american warriors were SAVAGES (I mean this in a complimentary way). When people dress up, I believe for the most part they are paying homage to those warriors. As I said in the last thread people go out of their way to be offended now a days. You could find a reason to be offended for 90% of the team names/mascots in this country. I also find it ironic that most of the people who were truly offended by it (allegedly) still continued to support the team. If it truly offended you, then why were you supporting the team? Doesn't really make sense to me. Also if you truly care about Native Americans, there are many more issues that they would love to be resolved well before one of 2K native american team names are changed in this country.
At the end of the day I am not going to lose sleep over it. I am more pissed about the Tribe choking in the ALDS. If getting rid of Chief Wahoo brings good karma to the team for a WS title, then I will be happy.
Upsetting is the continued caving to political correctness bullshit. As the post above notes, some people could find offense with 90% of team names/mascots; tough. If people knew the real history behind the name/logo, they would likley understand.
Since most team names/mascots are animals, I'm really questioning the claim that someone could reasonably find offense with 90% of them.
posted by justincredibleSince most team names/mascots are animals, I'm really questioning the claim that someone could find offense with 90% of them.
PETA is going to come along and demand their removal! Such a slippery slope!
posted by like_thatI wouldn't say "upset," but more annoyed they succumbed to people who mostly have no skin in the game. I don't think the intention of Chief Wahoo or the team name was to be racist. I think you get in murky water when you paint your face and try to mock tribes, but overall when people dress up as tribe members I think they do so as respect. If you follow American history, native american warriors were SAVAGES (I mean this in a complimentary way). When people dress up, I believe for the most part they are paying homage to those warriors. As I said in the last thread people go out of their way to be offended now a days. You could find a reason to be offended for 90% of the team names/mascots in this country. I also find it ironic that most of the people who were truly offended by it (allegedly) still continued to support the team. If it truly offended you, then why were you supporting the team? Doesn't really make sense to me. Also if you truly care about Native Americans, there are many more issues that they would love to be resolved well before one of 2K native american team names are changed in this country.
At the end of the day I am not going to lose sleep over it. I am more pissed about the Tribe choking in the ALDS. If getting rid of Chief Wahoo brings good karma to the team for a WS title, then I will be happy.
Since you've used "skin in the game" a few times now, I would like your definition of it. How does one have skin in this game, do they have to be native american?
PETA should be ignored outright. I did edit my post to add "reasonably." It's reasonable for someone to be offended by Chief Wahoo. It's not reasonable to be offended by an Eagle or a Dolphin.
posted by justincredibleSince most team names/mascots are animals, I'm really questioning the claim that someone could reasonably find offense with 90% of them.
You saying reasonable changes it. I just threw out 90%, but in 2018 does reason even exist? I could throw out examples for shits and giggles to show how anyone can find a way to get offended.
posted by Commander of AwesomeSince you've used "skin in the game" a few times now, I would like your definition of it. How does one have skin in this game, do they have to be native american?
Yes, it currently comes off as self loathing whitey telling the native americans why they should be offended. If the majority of native americans dgaf, I don't know why waste the energy to go out of your way to be offended by it. I will share the polling below, but the WAPO poll wasn't the only polling conducted throughout the years. Most if not all the polls support data that says the majority doesn't give a fuck about the logos or team names. You can nitpick each poll if you would like as you already did with the huffpo piece, but I will take the decent sample of empircal data (multiple polls done over different time periods) over a slanted huffpo piece citing organizations specifically campaigning against the team names (who btw, are also looking to raise $$$). Sprinkle that in with your own qualitative research and you will notice most people getting their panties in a bunch over this are white.
My legitimate questions to you all that are truly offended by native american mascot and team names:
-Why were you following the Cleveland Indians if you were truly offended? (I guess this question is only targetted to our fellow tribe fans)
-What do you think this truly changes for native americans?
-If you are truly offended, can I assume that you truly care about native americans? If so, why don't we see all of you and the rest of the donating their time and money to native american causes such as suicide prevention, poverty, alcoholism, and crime?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_opinion_polls
Edit: I think native americans would appreciate your voluntary action for the issues I listed well before the debate regarding team names/mascots.
I have no opinion on whether Chief Wahoo should stay or go.....I do not find it offensive at all, but do not care if it stays.
This is just a logo and a mascot. These things are very un-important to me in the entire scheme of life. If they are offensive to some and they can convince those who can do something about it to remove or change the logo and/or mascot, I'm good with that.
I also would not care if they were called the 'Cleveland Old White Guys' and the mascot was an overweight, balding 60+ year old guy in bermuda shorts, a t-shirt, tall black socks and white sneakers.
posted by justincredibleIt's not reasonable to be offended by an Eagle or a Dolphin.
An eagle is a vicious killer. ;-)
Fighting other groups' battles with/for them often comes off as condescending to me. Not my circus, not my monkeys.