posted by justincredibleA quick walk thru the CHAZ.
JFC.......I cant believe a city that requires the normal person to follow laws, pay taxes and such allow the fringe to paint dicks all over the place and its ok.
He provoked the whole thing. Cops were talking to him kindly, didnt force anything, asked him to turn and put hands behind back and he went off on them.
posted by gutI saw the whole video. I thought they already tased him, but maybe he took it from the other cop who hadn't discharged it.
In either case, a taser is a non-lethal weapon and I don't believe lethal force was justified there. Call for more backup and that situation could have been resolved without shooting the guy. Cop should absolutely be charged with murder.
In general, it's never been a requirement that a cop must face lethal force to use lethal force (i.e. a "fair fight"). I believe the threat of serious harm is a more reasonable standard and find the shooting justifiable.
This whole armchair QB of what a cop should have done is exhausting. I agree in hindsight a lot of times it could have been handled differently/more peacefully. But we’re also sitting here with all the facts, body cam footage, etc. They’re handling it in the moment with a no more than a few seconds to figure out what’s what. I’m all for more training and practice but still then it’s difficult to simulate what it’s actually like when someone fights with you and steals your weapon. I’m sure we’d all like to sit here and say “yep I’d just let it go and call for backup and go arrest him later” but fuck if we know how we’d handle it.
I guess I always think how good cops too get hurt and killed even just doing routine stuff. Then it’s like well shit maybe they should have acted more forcefully.
And none of this applies to Derek Chauvin. He was a murderer. But overall the job just seems to be a lose-lose.
Lastly, shooting someone in the back doesn’t make you a murderer. The guy made it to the fucking OR before he died. A number of things along the way could have went differently to give him a better shot of surviving.
posted by queencitybuckeyeIn general, it's never been a requirement that a cop must face lethal force to use lethal force (i.e. a "fair fight"). I believe the threat of serious harm is a more reasonable standard and find the shooting justifiable.
Imagine the guy had a knife, and is running away from you or 20 feet away from you. I think it's pretty obvious it wouldn't be justifiable to shoot the guy, nor would that be how you're trained to handle such a situation.
A guy who was just passed out drunk 20 feet away threatening you with a taser. So you shoot him? C'mon
posted by friendfromlowryLastly, shooting someone in the back doesn’t make you a murderer. The guy made it to the fucking OR before he died. A number of things along the way could have went differently to give him a better shot of surviving.
JFC the doctors aren't why he's dead.
posted by gutJFC the doctors aren't why he's dead.
I wasn’t blaming doctors. He’s dead because he fought officers, stole their weapon, fled and tried to shoot it back at them.
Some of you guys are complete fucking morons. Saying this wasn’t murder is insane. The cops should absolutely be charged with murder. When are we going to get past the era of cops shooting unarmed (lethal weapons) people to their death, and people arguing that the cops were in the right? Fucks sake.
I wish we were in the era where the cops would just tickle everyone that’s fighting them and stealing their weapons! Fucks sake is right.
posted by SportsAndLadySome of you guys are complete fucking morons. Saying this wasn’t murder is insane. The cops should absolutely be charged with murder. When are we going to get past the era of cops shooting unarmed (lethal weapons) people to their death, and people arguing that the cops were in the right? Fucks sake.
So when they don’t get convicted of murder are you the idiot? Not gonna shed a tear that some dude got killed being a moron. It’s pretty easy to not get killed by the police.
posted by iclfan2So when they don’t get convicted of murder are you the idiot? Not gonna shed a tear that some dude got killed being a moron. It’s pretty easy to not get killed by the police.
Lol, we know you don’t care that unarmed black people are being murdered by police. We know.
also, is OJ Simpson not a murderer because of what jurors said? Dumbass.
posted by friendfromlowryI wish we were in the era where the cops would just tickle everyone that’s fighting them and stealing their weapons! Fucks sake is right.
Or don’t shoot them dead. I know, crazy right?
posted by SportsAndLadyLol, we know you don’t care that unarmed black people are being murdered by police. We know.
also, is OJ Simpson not a murderer because of what jurors said? Dumbass.
You’re right, he was just an unarmed angel who got shot by the police. Sure. Don’t be a fuck up and don’t get killed by the police. It’s pretty simple.
posted by iclfan2You’re right, he was just an unarmed angel who got shot by the police. Sure. Don’t be a fuck up and don’t get killed by the police. It’s pretty simple.
You have a son. Your sons 18, goes and gets drunk at a bar and gets too drunk. Takes a swing at a cop, cop shoots him dead. I walk up to you say “your son player a stupid game, and he won a stupid prize. If he wasn’t a fuck-up, maybe he’d be alive”
Just trying to put it into perspective for you, because you’ll never agree with a side that involves a black person.
posted by gutImagine the guy had a knife, and is running away from you or 20 feet away from you. I think it's pretty obvious it wouldn't be justifiable to shoot the guy, nor would that be how you're trained to handle such a situation.
A guy who was just passed out drunk 20 feet away threatening you with a taser. So you shoot him? C'mon
He didn't "threaten", he attempted to shoot the cop with the taser..
posted by SportsAndLadyYou have a son. Your sons 18, goes and gets drunk at a bar and gets too drunk. Takes a swing at a cop, cop shoots him dead. I walk up to you say “your son player a stupid game, and he won a stupid prize. If he wasn’t a fuck-up, maybe he’d be alive”
Just trying to put it into perspective for you, because you’ll never agree with a side that involves a black person.
You pretending race was an issue here? He stole a taser and shot it at the cops. If I had a son I’d say you’re a giant fuck up. That isn’t even close to what actually happened. I’ve been drunk, talked to cops, and never thought I should beat them and try to steal their taser and then run away and shoot it at them. I would never raise a kid (27 btw) to be such a dumb fuck.
posted by queencitybuckeyeHe didn't "threaten", he attempted to shoot the cop with the taser..
Drunk as piss with a taser from 20 feet - might as well have been a kid with a squirt gun. Oh wait.....
No one's life was immediately threatened, and a taser is considered a non-lethal weapon. That shooting is absolutely unjustifiable.
Four years later in Graham v. Connor, the court held that the question of whether an officer used excessive force “requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each particular case, including the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, and whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight.”
The 9-0 decision found the “reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.”
posted by iclfan2You pretending race was an issue here? He stole a taser and shot it at the cops. If I had a son I’d say you’re a giant fuck up. That isn’t even close to what actually happened. I’ve been drunk, talked to cops, and never thought I should beat them and try to steal their taser and then run away and shoot it at them. I would never raise a kid (27 btw) to be such a dumb fuck.
Yeah, keep trying to convince yourself you don’t see race in these issues.
And you’re of course missing the point with the hypothetical son. The point is someone doesn’t deserve to die if they make one mistake with a police officer (assuming they aren’t shooting at or attempting to murder the cop). If they get gunned down for making a non-lethal mistake, that’s murder by the police officer.
posted by SportsAndLadyLol, we know you don’t care that unarmed black people are being murdered by police. We know.
also, is OJ Simpson not a murderer because of what jurors said? Dumbass.
You forgot to call him fat.
posted by SportsAndLadyYou have a son. Your sons 18, goes and gets drunk at a bar and gets too drunk. Takes a swing at a cop, cop shoots him dead. I walk up to you say “your son player a stupid game, and he won a stupid prize. If he wasn’t a fuck-up, maybe he’d be alive”
I'd ask if YOU were drunk
posted by SportsAndLadyLol, we know you don’t care that unarmed black people are being murdered by police. We know.
also, is OJ Simpson not a murderer because of what jurors said? Dumbass.
Do you know how many unarmed black people were killed By police in 2019? The answer is 9. We have police who fuck up and we have police who are racist but the community has bigger problems.
posted by gutDrunk as piss with a taser from 20 feet - might as well have been a kid with a squirt gun. Oh wait.....
No one's life was immediately threatened, and a taser is considered a non-lethal weapon. That shooting is absolutely unjustifiable.
Four years later in Graham v. Connor, the court held that the question of whether an officer used excessive force “requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each particular case, including the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, and whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight.”
The 9-0 decision found the “reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.”
Your case cite does not say in any way that life must be threatened. That is not the standard, as I stated before. The standard is life or great bodily harm. Shooting a taser at someone is an attempt to do the latter. Again, you're hanging your hat on the irrelevant fact that he was running away when what matters is that he was able to shoot at the officer while doing so and came reasonably close to a hit in spite of any level of intoxication.
posted by SportsAndLadyYeah, keep trying to convince yourself you don’t see race in these issues.
And you’re of course missing the point with the hypothetical son. The point is someone doesn’t deserve to die if they make one mistake with a police officer (assuming they aren’t shooting at or attempting to murder the cop). If they get gunned down for making a non-lethal mistake, that’s murder by the police officer.
Categorizing taking a weapon away from a cop as "a mistake" definitely shows a bias here, but it isn't on the part of the officer.
It's not even about "play stupid games," at the end of a day a cop is going to do anything to keep himself alive if he/she feels threatened. They would rather have their day in court than be dead. It doesn't surprise me he ended up getting shot considering what happened leading up to getting shot. Not even close to the same thing as what happened in Minneapolis.
With that being said, this all could have been avoided. This is why I have said numerous times in the other thread to stop arresting people for non violent crimes. At that point the dude was no longer a threat to anybody. He was drunk and not operating his vehicle. Give the dude a ticket and let him have his day in court. Either give him a ride home, call a friend, or an uber (tack the cost onto his fine). Done deal.
posted by queencitybuckeyeCategorizing taking a weapon away from a cop as "a mistake" definitely shows a bias here, but it isn't on the part of the officer.
He took a fucking taser. He was piss drunk, and there’s video of him talking to the cops before everything went down where he was clearly drunk but it was a “nice” conversation that you can clearly see there is no threat. The cops clearly didn’t need to start being aggressive with him, and he made a dumb mistake and fought back. I don’t think you deserve to die, and until people like you agree with that, nothing will change—we’ll continue to see cops murder citizens. Maybe you’re okay with that (which is just fucking weird), but the majority of people aren’t.