I know this isn't technically a political topic, but I'm pretty sure we're kidding ourselves if we don't think it'll end up there.

Any chance we can have a serious discussion on this topic?  It's one that has left me asking unanswered questions for a few years, and I'd really like to know if there's someone here who is, or is close to, someone who lives as transgendered.

Ran across this article yesterday:
https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/12/11/cretella-transcript/

I agree with most of the article, but I still have thoughts on what we do about those who don't get the biologically-defined sex reinforcement or who do end up with the warped view of sexual identity as kids (even as a result of parents trying to enforce gender roles).

What do we make of the link between biological sex and gender identity?  Is there a link?  If there is, is it necessarily so?  If it isn't, then what is it based on, if not on culturally enforced gender roles?

I've been mulling this over for quite some time now that I have a child.  It's not constantly top-of-mind, but I do wonder about it.

Does anyone here have any real insight into some of the above?  I'd love to hear any input on the matter before this becomes an echo chamber of disapproval and hostility toward it.

Looks like a good article. Giving kids any sort of medication to change their sex should be considered child abuse. If at 18 they want to destroy their bodies then so be it. I’m not sure exactly what you are asking, but if someone wants to be a transgender as an adult then so be it. I don’t plan on calling you a he when you’re obviously a she, but I also think you can live your life however you want to. I don’t think letting men play in women’s sports is a good idea of how to cope with this issue, or campaigning around the fact that men can have abortions too.

posted by iclfan2

Looks like a good article. Giving kids any sort of medication to change their sex should be considered child abuse. If at 18 they want to destroy their bodies then so be it. I’m not sure exactly what you are asking, but if someone wants to be a transgender as an adult then so be it. I don’t plan on calling you a he when you’re obviously a she, but I also think you can live your life however you want to. I don’t think letting men play in women’s sports is a good idea of how to cope with this issue, or campaigning around the fact that men can have abortions too.

If I might ask, what's the reservation you have about calling someone "he" if they're biologically female, or vice versa?

I have a few acquaintances who are transgendered, and I was kind of thrust into engaging it before I'd given it enough thought.  Because these are people with unique lives that I'd grown to care for, I decided to call them by whatever pronoun they wanted.  It doesn't, after all, harm me in any way to do so.  I still don't buy that they ARE the sex they're claiming with the pronoun, but to me, it's a hill I'm not willing to die on, because I don't think it's harming anyone any more than calling someone "Lt. Col." if he incorrectly believes himself to be a veteran who last held that rank.  I just can't buy the leap to call that lying.

As for what I'm asking, what do we make of "gender" on a macro scale?  Is it the same as sex?  If it's different, where do we think it comes from?  Is it possible that we actually hurt our ability to navigate gender confusion and/or transgenderism by trying to enforce gender roles ("boys don't play with dolls/wear pink/etc.")?

I'm pretty open to things. I think biological sex and gender identity are two different things. I disagree with some parts of the article, but would caveat, I think each kid and each person is different. I also think we are just starting to understand how the mind works and our understanding of gender and sexuality. Hell, the oppressive 50s was less than a century ago. 

I know people that are Trans and they have explained their painful and emotional experience to me. It is hard to tell that person sorry, but society says you are not who you say you are. 

Kids are a different story. I wrestle with it as well as maybe it is the kid crying out for attention, or maybe it is really them saying they are a different gender. The Dwayne Wade stuff a few weeks ago I think was a fascinating look at the moral conundrum parents may have to discuss with their kids. 

Some years ago there was a good Frontline that explored this year. It is worth a watch. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/growing-up-trans/

posted by O-Trap

If I might ask, what's the reservation you have about calling someone "he" if they're biologically female, or vice versa?

That's where imo it gets political. If it was someone who I ended up being around often and considered a friendly acquaintance then I would have no problem eventually giving in to their wishes. However, the ridiculous news articles about people being misgendered, and schools or colleges being "forced" to call people what they want, males allowed to take scholarship opportunities away from female athletes, is why I have a hard time of giving in to such things. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I'm pretty open to things. I think biological sex and gender identity are two different things. I disagree with some parts of the article, but would caveat, I think each kid and each person is different. I also think we are just starting to understand how the mind works and our understanding of gender and sexuality. Hell, the oppressive 50s was less than a century ago. 

I know people that are Trans and they have explained their painful and emotional experience to me. It is hard to tell that person sorry, but society says you are not who you say you are. 

Kids are a different story. I wrestle with it as well as maybe it is the kid crying out for attention, or maybe it is really them saying they are a different gender. The Dwayne Wade stuff a few weeks ago I think was a fascinating look at the moral conundrum parents may have to discuss with their kids. 

Some years ago there was a good Frontline that explored this year. It is worth a watch. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/growing-up-trans/

Perfect.  I was actually hoping there would be someone who delineated between biological sex and gender identity.

If biological sex is determined, as the term indicates, biologically, how would gender identity be determined?  And if it's not biologically, then is it even predetermined?

If you've not given much thought to it, or if you don't have an answer, that's okay.  I assure you this isn't intended as some sort of "gotcha" line of questions.  They're ones I've been tossing around for a few years, and I can't say I've come up with good answers to them.

As for the Frontline, I'll give that a watch this evening.  I'm curious to see where it goes.
 

posted by iclfan2

That's where imo it gets political. If it was someone who I ended up being around often and considered a friendly acquaintance then I would have no problem eventually giving in to their wishes. However, the ridiculous news articles about people being misgendered, and schools or colleges being "forced" to call people what they want, males allowed to take scholarship opportunities away from female athletes, is why I have a hard time of giving in to such things. 

Per the "Political Bent" thread, I'm obviously opposed to anyone being "forced" to call someone a specific pronoun, and so on that, it appears we agree.  I meant it more as a matter of choice.  If one has the choice, why would one choose to die on that hill?  It's something I've never understood.

most of these posts are TL;DR but what I cant stand about this topic is that the people with this mental health disorder thinks that EVERYONE should conform to them.  

THe pronoun police are the worst.  Dont force your behaviors on me and we are fine.  

posted by O-Trap

Perfect.  I was actually hoping there would be someone who delineated between biological sex and gender identity.

If biological sex is determined, as the term indicates, biologically, how would gender identity be determined?  And if it's not biologically, then is it even predetermined?

If you've not given much thought to it, or if you don't have an answer, that's okay.  I assure you this isn't intended as some sort of "gotcha" line of questions.  They're ones I've been tossing around for a few years, and I can't say I've come up with good answers to them.

As for the Frontline, I'll give that a watch this evening.  I'm curious to see where it goes.

 

I guess that is the big question and a great one how is gender determined? I don't know is my quick and simple answer. In my discussions with folks that are Trans, they just said they just felt from an early age they were a different gender. Is that biological or does that come from stimulus when we are a baby and exposed to items that state boys act like this and girls act like this, I'm not sure. Maybe it is more a mixture of both, both the makeup of the brain and how the person is raised, and other factors like type of household, etc. 

I will say it has lead me to question the stupidity of how gender is ingrained on babies. Boys are blue and girls are pink and shit like that. That seems like a modern social construct that I feel more and more of my friends are moving away from. Who says boys have to behave this way or girls a certain way when they are babies or kids? I feel more and more people are just neutral about it and just let the kid figure it out. 

My long term rake on it is as a society we are ever changing and more open to things that have always been there, just in the shadows. Trans is the latest in the long line like other taboo social issues. 

posted by Spock

most of these posts are TL;DR but what I cant stand about this topic is that the people with this mental health disorder thinks that EVERYONE should conform to them.  

THe pronoun police are the worst.  Dont force your behaviors on me and we are fine.  

That's fine I guess, but the argument I have heard from folks is if you do not call them by their respective pronoun you do not see who they really are and not seeing them as a full person. To you, they are just odd, not right and you are not giving them the proper respect in a conversation. 

I would almost equate it, thought not totally, to a white person calling a black person boy. 

Bumping this thread up since it's topical, already exists, and can be used to peel some talk out of the progressives mega-thread.

Don't boo me, please.

Being in the elementary school all these years I’ve had 7 kids that down the road or currently transitioning to the opposite sex. The two most recent I feel were 100% due to their moms pushing it. Most are currently at the high school and all are kids that struggled (broken home life’s, didn’t fit in very well….quiet kids that you could see issues, likely could’ve used counseling)….one odd one though was 20 years ago. He was an all-district baseball player, popular and good looking kid, solid family. He transitioned all the way, changed name and everything…moved away, shook the family and community. Ten years later he transitioned back…..not sure why.

I have a friend who's a transgender spy.  She works in CIS-Ops

I now know what thread to go to instead of the progressives one when I'm having a down day and just need to laugh at a never-ending circular argument over something that means very little to me.

Interesting situation at the Glendale School District in California. 

A teacher in the Glendale School District in California, where the violent protests went on earlier between Antifa and Armenians over pride month, went on an absolutely batshit insane rant during the school board meeting:

"I deal with a lot of the trauma of LGBT youth related to… pic.twitter.com/9igIPL5R4Q

— Greg Price (@greg_price11) June 7, 2023

How is Antifa still not labeled a terrorist hate group?

Just another weird example of "I don't like or support them, but I DO like when they gather to throw rocks at white supremacists"

posted by justincredible

Interesting situation at the Glendale School District in California. 

A teacher in the Glendale School District in California, where the violent protests went on earlier between Antifa and Armenians over pride month, went on an absolutely batshit insane rant during the school board meeting:

"I deal with a lot of the trauma of LGBT youth related to… pic.twitter.com/9igIPL5R4Q

— Greg Price (@greg_price11) June 7, 2023

Seems like the Armenians had a good show up in protest. Shame some loser leftists that don’t even have kids had to get beaten during it.  I was told these type of teachers don’t exist though, and they definitely weren’t pushing outlandish ideas on children. 

posted by iclfan2

I was told these type of teachers don’t exist though, and they definitely weren’t pushing outlandish ideas on children. 

Apparently she missed the memo that "CRT is not taught in schools".  I assume Geeblock or Ptown can forward her the email.

A public school teacher that believe a child can know they're trans at 3 years old. But I'm sure they're not actively indoctrinating the kids in their classroom. 

Another one:

Muslims in Montgomery County protesting against LGBT books in school. The other side appears all white, mostly women.

Selling immigrants on hating liberals would be the easiest thing in the world to do if conservatives had a real interest in winning. pic.twitter.com/EeuXmnOaC5

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) June 6, 2023

Republicans should probably start canvassing the Armenian and Muslim communities that are fed up with this stuff in schools. 

Later that day, they all recognized their common ground and celebrated genital mutilation together...

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Kids are a different story. I wrestle with it as well as maybe it is the kid crying out for attention, or maybe it is really them saying they are a different gender. The Dwayne Wade stuff a few weeks ago I think was a fascinating look at the moral conundrum parents may have to discuss with their kids. 

 

It is interesting how fast people can change their minds about something. It only takes 3 years to go from this to being outright spiteful when people say that kids shouldn't have their bodies Frankenstein'd.

Saluting to the trans included flag? Keep voting Lib tho, Trump is “too bad”

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS IS REAL pic.twitter.com/SDMyNkbpIk

— The_Real_Fly (@The_Real_Fly) June 8, 2023

And the president pretending trans kids exist…

JUST IN: Biden says “it’s wrong” that Florida has BANNED transgender surgeries and puberty blockers for minors.

No matter what Biden says … @RonDeSantis will ALWAYS protect kids and families. pic.twitter.com/bfr0Hludip

— DeSantis War Room 🐊 (@DeSantisWarRoom) June 8, 2023

When I posted a link that quoted Dylan Mulvaney's meeting with Biden, Biden was quoted reacting positively to Mulvaney bringing up trans affirming care to minors. Biden was already receptive to it. The activists have already got a good foothold and will continue to push this along.

posted by CenterBHSFan

When I posted a link that quoted Dylan Mulvaney's meeting with Biden, Biden was quoted reacting positively to Mulvaney bringing up trans affirming care to minors. Biden was already receptive to it. The activists have already got a good foothold and will continue to push this along.

Except there's not really anything Biden can do that would survive the courts, much less a Republican successor.

Never getting 60 votes in the Senate.  Biden won't be signing anything relevant into law.

posted by gut

Except there's not really anything Biden can do that would survive the courts, much less a Republican successor.

Never getting 60 votes in the Senate.  Biden won't be signing anything relevant into law.

There's been so many things that never should have had enough votes, but did anyway. 

In this case, if big pharma wants to make money off of it, they will. The lobbying and pressure big pharma can apply will get the votes.

posted by CenterBHSFan

There's been so many things that never should have had enough votes, but did anyway. 

In this case, if big pharma wants to make money off of it, they will. The lobbying and pressure big pharma can apply will get the votes.

Also, does it matter what he can or can’t do? The Democrat line is now that you should be able to mutilate/ fuck up children. Pretty fucked. 

And some people believed him when he said he was a centrist and a uniter.  

The biden regime is comprised of the most radical leftists in history.  Yes it started with obama, but these whackjobs are all that plus mentally ill.