I thought about starting these threads when S&L was bitching how the politics forum turned into a cesspool of conservatives bashing liberals.  He did have a point that our politics forum really hasn't broaden any discussions lately.  I believe in general, this site is overall pretty moderate and a lot of us probably agree on shit with posters we tend to clash with.  The plan was to start these threads when there were no sports and when the DNC debates started.  I did not anticipate S&L would actually cry and take his ball home.  

Anyway, I am going to try and keep making these threads.  If anyone wants to make these threads as well go for it.  Let's stick to actual issues and issues we have not beaten to the ground (i.e. guns).  The first topic is pretty mild.  What do you think should be this country's policy toward drugs?  I am talking about all drugs and not just marijuana. If you vote in the poll, at least provide your reasoning for your choice. 

FYI, if you don't know the difference between legalization vs decriminalization this link is pretty helpful https://www.thoughtco.com/decriminalization-versus-legalization-of-marijuana-3368393

Edit: I also hope these threads will bring in posters, who otherwise avoid politard discussions lol.

I went with legalizing all drugs.  I am going all in.  I truly believe if all drugs were legalized, crime would significantly drop in this country.  The amount of resources we put into finding drug "offenders," prosecuting them, and throwing them in jail is absurd. It wouldn't happen over night, but gradually if anyone can get any drug legally at a business, eventually crime will decease.  Why the fuck would they put their lives on the line for something they can now get legally?  It's no different than the prohibition era imo.  We can add age restrictions, like we do with alcohol now.  I'd also add with legalization (and decriminalization for that matter) the Government WILL NOT assist anyone who has issues with any substance.  I think it is a fair trade off.  You can put whatever the fuck you want in your body, but the state won't be helping you. 

Statistics show that legalizing some drugs will decrease drug use in other areas so I guess I would be for that.   

I went with legalize certain drugs. Mild drugs like weed, who gives a shit. So much money wasted in the courts, on police, and lives ruined for nothing.

I'm not sure I'd go all the way to legalize all, but it's an interesting concept.

posted by like_that

I went with legalizing all drugs.  I am going all in.  I truly believe if all drugs were legalized, crime would significantly drop in this country.  The amount of resources we put into finding drug "offenders," prosecuting them, and throwing them in jail is absurd. It wouldn't happen over night, but gradually if anyone can get any drug legally at a business, eventually crime will decease.  Why the fuck would they put their lives on the line for something they can now get legally?  It's no different than the prohibition era imo.  We can add age restrictions, like we do with alcohol now.  I'd also add with legalization (and decriminalization for that matter) the Government WILL NOT assist anyone who has issues with any substance.  I think it is a fair trade off.  You can put whatever the fuck you want in your body, but the state won't be helping you. 

Terrible idea.  Your utopian view on this is way off.  Crime will not decrease, it will be spread out.  hard drug use will trickle into younger ages, can you imagine what happens in hospitals if they have to deal with this?

Also, what do you do with social safety nets?  You cant have WIC, workers comp, umemployment, disability etc.....with this.  Unless you get zero if you fail a DT.

posted by iclfan2

I went with legalize certain drugs. Mild drugs like weed, who gives a shit. So much money wasted in the courts, on police, and lives ruined for nothing.

I'm not sure I'd go all the way to legalize all, but it's an interesting concept.

This certainly would be a great start.  I doubt our government would rip the entire band aid off.

posted by like_that

I went with legalizing all drugs.  I am going all in.  I truly believe if all drugs were legalized, crime would significantly drop in this country.  The amount of resources we put into finding drug "offenders," prosecuting them, and throwing them in jail is absurd. It wouldn't happen over night, but gradually if anyone can get any drug legally at a business, eventually crime will decease.  Why the fuck would they put their lives on the line for something they can now get legally?  It's no different than the prohibition era imo.  We can add age restrictions, like we do with alcohol now.  I'd also add with legalization (and decriminalization for that matter) the Government WILL NOT assist anyone who has issues with any substance.  I think it is a fair trade off.  You can put whatever the fuck you want in your body, but the state won't be helping you. 

This is my good buddy who is a die hard libertarian view. We have went round and round over the years. 

I'm for legalizing most drugs, just not drugs like meth and cocaine, and fentanyl. I agree if we legalize weed and eliminate lower levels of offenders, crime would drop. The use of the harder drugs may also drop as a result, one would hope. 

On the flip side, I've seen first hand in my town what wide spread drug use wipes out a whole generation. If you legalize those hard drugs, I feel like you need to address the causes and solutions to drug addiction. That may be a huge cost risk if people can just walk up and buy meth or fentanyl whenever they want. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

This is my good buddy who is a die hard libertarian view. We have went round and round over the years. 

I'm for legalizing most drugs, just not drugs like meth and cocaine, and fentanyl. I agree if we legalize weed and eliminate lower levels of offenders, crime would drop. The use of the harder drugs may also drop as a result, one would hope. 

On the flip side, I've seen first hand in my town what wide spread drug use wipes out a whole generation. If you legalize those hard drugs, I feel like you need to address the causes and solutions to drug addiction. That may be a huge cost risk if people can just walk up and buy meth or fentanyl whenever they want. 

Granted my hometown in Dayton hasn't been hit by it, but Dayton overall has been hit hard by it.  The way I see it is these people are getting their hands on it regardless of it being legal or not.  I just don't view it as the Government's job to help these people for a choice they made.  If you really want to help, donate or volunteer time to non profit dedicated to helping these people.  Non profits would do a 100x better job than any other state run program, plus we wouldn't have to deal with politicians politicizing it. 

posted by like_that

Granted my hometown in Dayton hasn't been hit by it, but Dayton overall has been hit hard by it.  

posted by like_that

Granted my hometown in Dayton hasn't been hit by it, but Dayton overall has been hit hard by it.  The way I see it is these people are getting their hands on it regardless of it being legal or not.  I just don't view it as the Government's job to help these people for a choice they made.  If you really want to help, donate or volunteer time to non profit dedicated to helping these people.  Non profits would do a 100x better job than any other state run program, plus we wouldn't have to deal with politicians politicizing it. 

I get the argument. But, the Government still deals with the impacts and side effects. Police and EMTs will still have to deal with ODs and the impacts of people seeking money (crime) for those harder drugs. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I get the argument. But, the Government still deals with the impacts and side effects. Police and EMTs will still have to deal with ODs and the impacts of people seeking money (crime) for those harder drugs. 

Well, when I say the state doesn't get involve, that also includes not forcing police to carry narcan.  That's part of the tradeoff.  Even with EMTs dealing with ODs, what is the difference between them doing it now vs doing it when it is legal?  I don't foresee a large spike in substance abuse if all drugs are legalized. In fact I would bet it's more likely we would see a drop.  

posted by Spock

Not sure if serious, but Dayton is #1 in the nation for drug overdoses...

I voted to legalize all drugs, which is a turnaround from where I was a few years ago. Back then I was still stuck in sympathy mode. But one of my besties' husband is an addict and she told me once that addiction is a voluntary disease, not something spontaneous like leukemia. At first I couldn't believe she actually said that but after thinking about it for a while I started to think she was right. It's not that she doesn't love or support her husband, it's the fact that despite that, she sees it how it really is. As it stands at any rate, I'm just a cold enough person to limit my sympathy anyway, so it really wasn't a difficult transition. 

I have similar views to like_that in that if you decide to take the plunge into doing things like fentanyl, then you don't get any narcan. It's the same concept as people who make the choice to play russian roulette in my mind there's no do-overs. 

My only wish would be that the people who decide to do dangerous/lethal drugs would have a pre-paid funeral expense program so that their family isn't stuck with paying for it. But I'm not sure how/if that would even work so it would have to be the tragic side effect. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

This is my good buddy who is a die hard libertarian view. We have went round and round over the years. 

I'm for legalizing most drugs, just not drugs like meth and cocaine, and fentanyl. I agree if we legalize weed and eliminate lower levels of offenders, crime would drop. The use of the harder drugs may also drop as a result, one would hope. 

On the flip side, I've seen first hand in my town what wide spread drug use wipes out a whole generation. If you legalize those hard drugs, I feel like you need to address the causes and solutions to drug addiction. That may be a huge cost risk if people can just walk up and buy meth or fentanyl whenever they want. 

Did you mean cocaine or heroin?

As for meth, wasn't it created as a cheap way to get high because heroin was harder to get? Do people voluntarily use fentanyl, or is it used to lace drugs to make them more potent?

Most of these issues go away if there is an easy way to obtain pure heroin/cocaine, no? Even in my libertarian worldview I'm okay with the harder stuff being regulated by the government. Want heroin? Stop by the drug clinic to get it administered by a trained professional, and by the way we have easy treatment options if you're looking to get off the stuff. 

On the other hand, want pot? There's a vending machine over there.

As for my vote, I went with other. Legalize the mild stuff, decriminalize the heavy stuff and have easy access at government facilities. Because drug dealers don't check ids.

Great thread, by the way. Keep these coming.

posted by iclfan2

I'm not sure I'd go all the way to legalize all, but it's an interesting concept.

I voted decriminalize all, legalize some.  Legalizing all WILL lead to significant increases in addiction, and I don't think you can dismiss that with treatment programs just because of what happened in Portugal(?).

Just look at opiates.  Effectively legal with a doctor prescription, but that's still a lot more different and relatively controlled than going to the corner store for a beer.  And we have an opiod epidemic.  So to me it's plainly obvious that legalization of all is not a good idea.  Legalization would result in an explosion of addiction to all kinds of hardcore drugs.

With decriminalization, you're not locking people up for simple possession.  That stops recreational drug use from costing your job with a few months in county.

posted by like_that

 I don't foresee a large spike in substance abuse if all drugs are legalized. In fact I would bet it's more likely we would see a drop.  

There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people who got addicted to opiates via "legal" doctor prescriptions.  Most of them are not people who would have driven into the seedy part of town looking for a dealer.  There's not much risk in seeking out a doctor to prescribe you, and that's what legalization and availability is going to do.

The question is if addiction is different for different drugs, or if it's strictly dependent on the person (i.e. an alcoholic would become addicted to any drug, someone addicted to cocaine becomes addicted to alcohol if they can't get coke, etc).

posted by justincredible

As for my vote, I went with other. Legalize the mild stuff, decriminalize the heavy stuff and have easy access at government facilities. Because drug dealers don't check ids.

Also, legalization doens't necessarily get rid of the illegal dealers.  I think illegal marijuana is becoming an increasing problem in states where it's legal because the cartels are undercutting the prices....proving that old economic axiom that high taxes create a black market.

posted by CenterBHSFan

... addiction is a voluntary disease, not something spontaneous like leukemia.

It may be voluntary in that once or twice or very occasionally doesn't give you the disease.  But no one starts out with the plan to become addicted.  They find ways to justify more and more use, and tell themselves they can quit whenever they want...until they're addicted.  There's never a conscious choice that the next drink is going to make you an alcoholic.

In that respect, addiction isn't really that different from becoming overweight/obese.  It's pretty much the same thing - people don't pay much attention, and then one day it's "I'm fat".  I wonder if staying sober doesn't have a similar success rate to losing weight....

posted by gut

Also, legalization doens't necessarily get rid of the illegal dealers.  I think illegal marijuana is becoming an increasing problem in states where it's legal because the cartels are undercutting the prices....proving that old economic axiom that high taxes create a black market.

You're not wrong. In my scenario there wouldn't necessarily be the huge regulatory burden that causes high prices. Our current system seems to care only about maximizing tax revenue, which is not how I'd run it.

I'd definitely be on the "legalize some, decriminalize the rest" train, if for no other reason than to kill the costly and comically ineffective "war on drugs". I'd also be in favor of publicly disclosing just how much money Big Pharm is giving any politician who is against that concept, since the shit they flood the market with is more damaging than a decent amount of the stuff a person can get on the street. To me, it's utterly absurd that a person can potentially face jail time and the loss of employment because they like to indulge in certain substances, regardless of whether those substances have any effect on their performance or regardless of how responsible a person is with those substances.

Let the states decide.  If a state wants to legalize everything and you dont want to live there then move

Legalize Marijuana

posted by CenterBHSFan

 addiction is a voluntary disease,

 

That's cute.

posted by Spock

Let the states decide.  If a state wants to legalize everything and you dont want to live there then move

If states decide legalization, then you have to decriminalize at the federal level, in my opinion.  You can't do something 100% legal in one state, and be deemed a criminal in another state for participating in the exact same thing.

What I put in my body is mine alone to decide, as are the consequences.