posted by HOF on coattails

Not 90%.

I agree. Not 90% but definitely over 45/50%. You'd have to be ignorant or willfully ignorant not to admit that he's a big cog in this machinery. I just haven't followed this enough to better determine what percentage I'd give him. But I'd like to think that I wouldn't inflate it nor constrict it.

Donald Trump deserves a lot of credit - ultimately - by being the first President who has shown a willingness to save "Fuck You" to the current world order. Like the amateur who sits down at the Poker Table and is such a wild card with a big stack of chips that you have no idea what they're going to do and the rest of the players at the table - including other wild cards with smaller stacks of chips - react accordingly. 

while I think he has embarrassed the United States and diminished our ultimate power and influence projection in the world - I would much rather have a world with less U.S. influence and more prosperity and peace. 

If this North Korea thing gets done, he gets more from Iran do to his threats to pull out (the Iran Deal being ultimately the model for a North Korean deal), and tax reform holds - I think he'll go down as one of our great Presidents even if he loses in 2020 - sort of like how Winston Churchill lost (but I don't see who the Dem candidate is who can beat him even at this stage). 

posted by BoatShoes

Donald Trump deserves a lot of credit - ultimately - by being the first President who has shown a willingness to save "Fuck You" to the current world order. Like the amateur who sits down at the Poker Table and is such a wild card with a big stack of chips that you have no idea what they're going to do and the rest of the players at the table - including other wild cards with smaller stacks of chips - react accordingly. 

while I think he has embarrassed the United States and diminished our ultimate power and influence projection in the world - I would much rather have a world with less U.S. influence and more prosperity and peace. 

If this North Korea thing gets done, he gets more from Iran do to his threats to pull out (the Iran Deal being ultimately the model for a North Korean deal), and tax reform holds - I think he'll go down as one of our great Presidents even if he loses in 2020 - sort of like how Winston Churchill lost (but I don't see who the Dem candidate is who can beat him even at this stage). 

Boatshoes coming around to the dark side...

Boatshoes tends to have a glitch in his system every now and then.

posted by jmog

Boatshoes coming around to the dark side...

I think history would come around to say, perhaps not incorrectly, that the POTUS gets far too much credit and blame for the work of others.

I don't think he's smart, he's absurdly caustic, and his administration is chaotic to put it mildly....how would I give him credit?  The WH is a circus, so maybe the lesson is Trump sucks as bad as the other guys, but he's being ignored and the mean 'ol "deep state" is getting shit done.

posted by BoatShoes

Donald Trump deserves a lot of credit - ultimately - by being the first President who has shown a willingness to save "Fuck You" to the current world order. Like the amateur who sits down at the Poker Table and is such a wild card with a big stack of chips that you have no idea what they're going to do and the rest of the players at the table - including other wild cards with smaller stacks of chips - react accordingly. 

while I think he has embarrassed the United States and diminished our ultimate power and influence projection in the world - I would much rather have a world with less U.S. influence and more prosperity and peace. 

If this North Korea thing gets done, he gets more from Iran do to his threats to pull out (the Iran Deal being ultimately the model for a North Korean deal), and tax reform holds - I think he'll go down as one of our great Presidents even if he loses in 2020 - sort of like how Winston Churchill lost (but I don't see who the Dem candidate is who can beat him even at this stage). 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Well, those other Presidents also reached this point. Clinton had the Agreed Framework in 1994 that worked for a while. Clinton had one final push in 2000 that almost worked until the clock ran out. He was about to make a visit to North Korea, but sent Madeline Albright instead as he focused on Mideast peace (the doomed 2000 Camp David Meeting). Bush had 2007 and the Feb 14 agreement that lasted for about a month. Bush also had the Six Party talks, which went really well for a while. Obama had the 2012 Leap Day Deal. 

I've give Trump credit for making it this far, but it has been the regional players that have taken the ball to its current location. Kudos to him for the different approach, seriously. We are in a better place now than six months ago or a year ago.

But, I'll give him full credit if he can do what all the others have been unable to....a credible and verified nuclear free North Korea that returns to the NPT and get full IAEA inspections. He does that, he gets the prize along with the regional actors. 

If I sound skeptical, it is because I am....we have been burned before...

my, my ...........does Iran come to mind?

posted by QuakerOats

 

 

my, my ...........does Iran come to mind?

If by that you mean an agreement where Iran is bound by IAEA verification measures that even SECDEF Matthis said it assumes Iran is cheating and has a robust verification system...then sure. We have that mechanism already in place for Iran. We just need to bolt some other things on to it, like missiles and other arms issues. 

We currently have no such measure even in place for North Korea. 

posted by BoatShoes

 

If this North Korea thing gets done, he gets more from Iran do to his threats to pull out (the Iran Deal being ultimately the model for a North Korean deal), and tax reform holds - I think he'll go down as one of our great Presidents even if he loses in 2020 - sort of like how Winston Churchill lost (but I don't see who the Dem candidate is who can beat him even at this stage). 

Same could be for Clinton in 94 and 2000, Bush in 2007, and Obama in 2012. We have been here before. If Trump actually can crack the nut all the others have not been able to...then your point is correct. Big fucking if. 

I don't think we can dismiss the additional sanctions he wanted, the more hard line stance and rhetoric he put out there as a reason NK changed their tune.

He wasn't afraid of past Presidents and knew they wouldn't get tough.  I believe he realizes that Trump is bat shit crazy and just may follow through on his threats.

Do I believe it will stick?

No.  They will continue it more secrecy, we will not trust them, and then when them Democrats win the election in 3 years he will become more combative again .

Problem is by then is if sanctions are lifted, the day to day lives get better for noKoreans may revolt against him if his actions result in getting them put back on the shit list.

He knows Trump will be a one and done Prez.   He just needs to not poke the piranha until the next electiom

posted by Devils Advocate

I hear the McDogLT is excellent.

posted by Devils Advocate

This is probably the strategy since he has already been eating himself to death.  A few big macs will be the final daggers.

3 U.S. hostages being released; Trump will be greeting them upon arrival. 

Kim Dong-chul was arrested in 2015 in North Korea, two years before the other hostages, on spying charges. He had confessed to attempting to smuggle military secrets out of North Korea on a USB stick, but it’s unclear if the confession was forced.

Kim Sang-duk, who is also known as Tony Kim, has been described as a religious man in his 50s who went to North Korea to discuss relief and humanitarian aid work. He had previously been teaching at a university in China, and had also spent several months with the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (PUST) before his arrest. He was detained in April last year by the North Korean government, which accused him of attempting to overthrow the government.

Kim Hak-song is an expert in agriculture who had been teaching rice-growing at the PUST in order to help the country overcome its chronic food shortages. He had also been ordained as an evangelical Christian pastor.

All three men are ethnic Koreans who became naturalized U.S. citizens.

INOGIVEYFUCKY

posted by QuakerOats

3 U.S. hostages being released; Trump will be greeting them upon arrival. 

And without pallets of cash or other terrorists to trade. 

posted by Devils Advocate

Kim Dong-chul was arrested in 2015 in North Korea, two years before the other hostages, on spying charges. He had confessed to attempting to smuggle military secrets out of North Korea on a USB stick, but it’s unclear if the confession was forced.

Kim Sang-duk, who is also known as Tony Kim, has been described as a religious man in his 50s who went to North Korea to discuss relief and humanitarian aid work. He had previously been teaching at a university in China, and had also spent several months with the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (PUST) before his arrest. He was detained in April last year by the North Korean government, which accused him of attempting to overthrow the government.

Kim Hak-song is an expert in agriculture who had been teaching rice-growing at the PUST in order to help the country overcome its chronic food shortages. He had also been ordained as an evangelical Christian pastor.

All three men are ethnic Koreans who became naturalized U.S. citizens.

INOGIVEYFUCKY

 

Lol this might be a worse spin than cnn crying the trump was just doing this for the photo ops or the nyt crying over Pompeo.

posted by like_that

Lol this might be a worse spin than cnn crying the trump was just doing this for the photo ops or the nyt crying over Pompeo.

Devils advocate is a weird dude

posted by SportsAndLady

Devils advocate is a weird dude

Yeah...

I get that Trump broke a lot of people’s brains, but sometimes you just got to tip the cap and move on.  Downplaying these citizens doesn’t convince me you don’t have TDS.

posted by like_that

Yeah...

I get that Trump broke a lot of people’s brains, but sometimes you just got to tip the cap and move on.  Downplaying these citizens doesn’t convince me you don’t have TDS.

Probably cheered for the Bergdahl trade for terrorists too.

posted by Devils Advocate

Kim Dong-chul was arrested in 2015 in North Korea, two years before the other hostages, on spying charges. He had confessed to attempting to smuggle military secrets out of North Korea on a USB stick, but it’s unclear if the confession was forced.

Kim Sang-duk, who is also known as Tony Kim, has been described as a religious man in his 50s who went to North Korea to discuss relief and humanitarian aid work. He had previously been teaching at a university in China, and had also spent several months with the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (PUST) before his arrest. He was detained in April last year by the North Korean government, which accused him of attempting to overthrow the government.

Kim Hak-song is an expert in agriculture who had been teaching rice-growing at the PUST in order to help the country overcome its chronic food shortages. He had also been ordained as an evangelical Christian pastor.

All three men are ethnic Koreans who became naturalized U.S. citizens.

INOGIVEYFUCKY

 

Proof of the fact that you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. 

US Citizens were hostages in NK and Trump got them released. Your instinct is to downplay the citizens “well they worth ethnic Koreans so it doesn’t mean much...”

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/20/politics/kim-jong-un-north-korea/index.html

Shit.....hermit kingdom may be falling.  We are going to get in there and find out that millions are dead from Covid

Imagine being the doctor who operated on Kim.  That is a lot of pressure.

posted by like_that

Imagine being the doctor who operated on Kim.  That is a lot of pressure.

Is it?  I mean, if you're successful then Kim is very grateful.  If you're unsuccessful, then #2 is very grateful.

This might be a big political issue come November if we have a rogue regime who has no government.  Or we might be running a proxy war through S. Korea to keep Russia and China from taking over.