posted by ptown_trojans_1

 

I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

One can have a view that Biden made the overall right strategic call, but botched the actual execution. The fall of the Afghan government was going to happen. The failure by everyone was not seeing it was going to happen as fast as it did. A series of tactical errors led to this mess we are in now. 

I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how? 

I wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now).  I would never bash Biden for withdrawing.   I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama).  With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.  

I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke.  We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline.  Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.  

posted by kizer permanente

jfc dude lol

Looks like you have reported my post.

Welp, the war is officially over.  Time for Dementia Joe to come out and spike the football.

posted by like_that

I wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now).  I would never bash Biden for withdrawing.   I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama).  With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.  

I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke.  We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline.  Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.  

The only part of it that Biden can really blame Trump for is the whole "release thousands of Taliban as part of the cease-fire treaty" bit. Releasing tons of prisoners from a non-ally force we've been at odds with for ages was just a horrible move and regardless of the CC's of the world and their "4D chess, he talks tough and they'd know what's what!" bullshit, that never was going to work because when the fuck has any of our "give something to get something" actions ever worked in that general part of the world?

Which then goes back to Joe, considering how he moved Trump's "get out" timetable from May to recently, likely in order to make it his accomplishment because that's politics, and seemingly did nothing whatsoever to actually make it work, or at least not be a complete shit-show where they have tons of our stuff simply because they decided to test how well-organized we were in the face of aggressive action.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10. 

History isn’t done writing the chapter yet.  Wait till the Taliban and other terrorist groups fuck out the whole Middle East.

I see where the DC swamp and media are already lining up to try to write their own. It will start with a disgusting 9/11 day where they somehow try to claim a W on this

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10. 

False.

Again.

posted by like_that

I wouldn't ask you to go thru a bunch a pages to see my previous takes on this, but I said from the beginning it was the right move to withdraw (which I have supported for over a decade now).  I would never bash Biden for withdrawing.   I would say the majority of this thread supported withdrawal and the majority of this thread understands both Republicans and Democrats have a lot of blame to share for the past 20 years (Biden doesn't get a free pass for his 8 years with Obama).  With that being said, as you already stated Biden deserves to be severely criticized for the execution.  

I don't have the answers on how it should have been done, but I do know it would be very hard to set the bar any lower than the Biden Admin and passing the blame to the former guy is a complete joke.  We were there for 20 years, and Biden unilaterally changed Trump's deadline.  Don't try to sell me this bullshit that his "hands were tied," and downplay it as if this was how it was always going to go down.  

Yeah, I am with you on this. There were a lot of warning signs being screamed by various groups about the need to get people out before August. Biden just did not listen to them. The strategy was to withdraw seemed right, but the tactics were a mess. Seems like it was we are leaving, screw the way how to leave. I look at this whole thing now as just the latest failure in nearly 20 years of failures. 

posted by QuakerOats

False.

Again.

Worse days off the top of my head:

Marine Barracks bombing in Beirut 

USS Cole 

Bombings in Kenya and Tanzania

Operation Eagle Claw 

Black Hawk Down 

That does not even include actual battles where the loss of life was far greater.  

This was a completely self-inflicted disaster of epic proportion. 

Not shocked you don't get it. 

Fine summary here:  https://www.creators.com/read/armstrong-williams/08/21/our-global-leadership-is-declining

posted by QuakerOats

This was a completely self-inflicted disaster of epic proportion. 

Not shocked you don't get it. 

Fine summary here:  https://www.creators.com/read/armstrong-williams/08/21/our-global-leadership-is-declining

I dismiss any article that states this was the greatest moral failing in American history. That is quite some hyperbole. My general rule of thumb is if the person is saying this is the worst of all time, I dismiss it because they have zero grasp of history. 

He mentions Nam, fine. But, he glosses over a lot of it, like the whole POW issue. 

The rest of the article is a mess as his timeline is all over the place. 

While the events of the last week are tragic, they are just the latest in a line of US failures. Was this the worse, nope, not by a long shot. But, it was pretty damn bad and embarrassing. I think a lot of people are angry because they are not used to America being seen like this when in reality, this has happened numerous times in US history. 

yea trump as usual had a a bigly good plan, but cant say what it was

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-reveals-master-plan-afghanistan-143910953.html

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I dismiss any article that states this was the greatest moral failing in American history. That is quite some hyperbole. My general rule of thumb is if the person is saying this is the worst of all time, I dismiss it because they have zero grasp of history. 

He mentions Nam, fine. But, he glosses over a lot of it, like the whole POW issue. 

The rest of the article is a mess as his timeline is all over the place. 

While the events of the last week are tragic, they are just the latest in a line of US failures. Was this the worse, nope, not by a long shot. But, it was pretty damn bad and embarrassing. I think a lot of people are angry because they are not used to America being seen like this when in reality, this has happened numerous times in US history. 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/wapo-calls-afghanistan-a-moral-disaster

Good Lord, even the Wapo is calling it a moral disaster. 

And then this .......

https://nypost.com/2021/08/31/video-shows-man-hanging-below-black-hawk-flown-by-taliban/

If that is what it appears to be, the entire administration needs to be removed; hell they already should have been.

posted by QuakerOats

https://www.foxnews.com/media/wapo-calls-afghanistan-a-moral-disaster

Good Lord, even the Wapo is calling it a moral disaster. 

That it is and it is on Biden. But, you act like this is some historic, never happened before, worst case situation, when it is the latest chapter in fucked up foreign policy mistakes by the US. 

Also, if you are going to cite the Post, actually post the article, not a Fox News clip

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/30/evacuation-may-be-ending-americas-responsibility-afghan-friends-left-behind-is-not/

Going to go with this:

If Biden wasnt the president, none of this would have happened.  So with that, its all his fault because he and his inept generals suck at their jobs and should be fired

And now he is on  TV literally lying about the options again.  

SICKENING.

When the Pubs take back the house and senate in 2022, they will be fired and impeached for this.

posted by Fletch

When the Pubs take back the house and senate in 2022, they will be fired and impeached for this.

posted by geeblock

yea trump as usual had a a bigly good plan, but cant say what it was

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-reveals-master-plan-afghanistan-143910953.html

He's not president anymore.  

posted by QuakerOats

And now he is on  TV literally lying about the options again.  

SICKENING.

You're "sickened", "disgusted", "outraged", etc. every single day about something.  After to reading you conclude every democratic focused posting with some over-the-top adjective for the past 10 years, I'm starting to consider that you might be the Little Boy Who Cried (Wolf).  

Cool

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

You're "sickened", "disgusted", "outraged", etc. every single day about something.  After to reading you conclude every democratic focused posting with some over-the-top adjective for the past 10 years, I'm starting to consider that you might be the Little Boy Who Cried (Wolf).  

Nothing wrong with a little Teen Girl Drama Club!

posted by Heretic

Nothing wrong with a little Teen Girl Drama Club!

Back in the 1990s, Gordon Liddy used to have a radio show.  He was very right wing.  Much of his airtime was him interviewing former service members, and callers saying to him "What an honor it is to speak with you Mr. Liddy" like he was Audie Murphy or something.  

Anyway, about half his show was dedicated to him reading new stories verbatim from right leaning news sources - primarily the Washington Times.  Almost every story was an example of some democratic politician doing something Liddy and the newspaper deemed stupid and that both openly mocked.  He'd read the news story and his "comment upon" it was usually one word adjectives "Jeesh", "Pathetic", "Unbelievable", "Sickening", "Sad" - you get the drift.  

Anyway, our very own Quaker seems to subscribe to this Groundhog's Day version of renewed daily outrage.  Reminds me of Liddy actually - predictable, narrow, without much growth.