posted by majorspark

Does he announce "they gave me a list".

Not enough attention is being given to his other gaffe: "I have another meeting about to start...for real".

Ummm, you're POTUS.  I don't think the meeting is going to start without you.

posted by gut

Not enough attention is being given to his other gaffe: "I have another meeting about to start...for real".

Ummm, you're POTUS.  I don't think the meeting is going to start without you.

Yea and the "for real" comment.  It was almost like hey I know I have been peddling a lot of bullshit the past few weeks but this meeting is real, I'm not lying.

posted by majorspark

You can keep telling yourself that.  You are in a very small minority.  Whatever it takes I guess.  I am not talking about the the Taliban taking over Afghanistan but if you think the clusterfuck we have all seen unfold over the last couple of months was unavoidable and going to happen no matter who are leaders are, I don't know what to tell you.  If it was so predictable as you now say one would think there would be some preparation.

Explain to me how it would have been avoided? What, thousands of more troops over there? For what exactly? To prop up a government that was corrupt and not paying their own soldiers it turns out?

It was going to fall just like South Vietnam fell. 

You are correct in that everyone was caught off guard about how fast the collapse occurred, but even the military and IC said the Afghan government was eventually going to fall. 

posted by majorspark

Considering my parents were still wiping my ass near the tail end of Nixon's Presidency, like I said I can't recall.  Does he announce "they gave me a list".

You do know there is this thing called youtube and the internet right? 

posted by gut

Not enough attention is being given to his other gaffe: "I have another meeting about to start...for real".

Ummm, you're POTUS.  I don't think the meeting is going to start without you.

I did laugh and sigh at that...like really? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

The Taliban were not created by Reagan...they were already there. They were aided by the CIA in late 79, still under Carter, and then expanded under Reagan CIA. 

HW Bush then left Afghanistan after the Cold War. 

W Bush invaded, rightly after 9/11. The mistake seems to have been the mission went from counter terrorism to nation building and thus started the whole cluster fuck of what is the mission? 

Something that ptown and I agree 100% on  

This is factual history right here.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Explain to me how it would have been avoided? What, thousands of more troops over there? For what exactly? To prop up a government that was corrupt and not paying their own soldiers it turns out?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

You do know there is this thing called youtube and the internet right? 

Not worth my time.  But it is ironic you cite a President that was unable to finish out his term.

posted by majorspark
Not sending troops back in to be sitting ducks when the decision to remove the military had already been implemented.  I am not even sure why you are trying so hard to temper such a clusterfuck.

Ah, so leaving American citizens and Afghans that fought with us to just die there as we pack up and leave....ok, got it. 

At the very, very least we need to bring out anyone that is American and fought with us over there out of there. Anything less than that is just inhumane and cruel. 

Now, from there, you can actually say, Biden should have started evacs earlier. That he should have been processing the Afghans faster. That is a valid criticism. But, also remember back in June, the Afhgan government at the time was saying to us they did not want a lot of people to leave. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Ah, so leaving American citizens and Afghans that fought with us to just die there as we pack up and leave....ok, got it. 

posted by geeblock

I missed the conditional part.. link?

as far as I am concerned both parties share blame.

The taliban was created and armed by Reagan. 

Bush invaded Afghanistan in the first place.

Trump surrendered to them and freed 5,000 of them while begging them to come to camp david and meet with him.  

He had no plan in place to get the troops out, much in the same way he left our allies high and dry when we left syria.. 

the whole thing was a mess and was always going to be. this shouldn't be a partisan issue and people shouldn't use soldier's deaths as political fodder.  Trump is a draft dodger who has no respect for the military unless he's slamming nfl players.  At least biden has two kids who were in the military.

 

The conditional part is factual; you can readily ascertain that yourself.   

Trump had the will to back up the arrangement, and did.  The Taliban understood.  

The catastrophe is all biden's and his "advisors".  Stop trying to deflect and blame others for their horrific plan and execution. 

Biden said, "the buck stops with me!"  Unfortunately that is a lie. 

I’m sure Trumps plan was to leave all our weapons behind and strand people there. The Biden team looked at the plan and said “perfect” let’s do what Trump was going to do. S/

How come when anything goes bad for a democrat they can blame the previous Republican President and you guys will buy it. Then when something goes right it’s because they changed the previous Presidents plan. The Biden Administration made it clear they hated Trump and everything he did why would they go about changing everything he did except for the plan of how to leave Afghanistan. 

Use your brain this was Biden’s plan and is a massive failure. Just accept it. 

posted by sportchampps

I’m sure Trumps plan was to leave all our weapons behind and strand people there. The Biden team looked at the plan and said “perfect” let’s do what Trump was going to do. S/

How come when anything goes bad for a democrat they can blame the previous Republican President and you guys will buy it. Then when something goes right it’s because they changed the previous Presidents plan. The Biden Administration made it clear they hated Trump and everything he did why would they go about changing everything he did except for the plan of how to leave Afghanistan. 

Use your brain this was Biden’s plan and is a massive failure. Just accept it. 

Every new president (or most of them) blame the previous one  Biden is doing it; Trump and his acolytes blamed Obama for stuff his entire four years in office  Obama blamed Bush for stuff constantly while in office  on and on  no party has a monopoly  

So far the best defense (deflection) of Biden and Kamala completely botching this evacuation plan comes down to the following:

A. It’s Trump’s fault

B. This was going to happen anyway

C. Both

Yikes…

Hurricane Ida to the distraction rescue!

posted by gut

Hurricane Ida to the distraction rescue!

If it goes sideways:

A. It’s Trump’s fault

B. This was going to happen anyway

C. Both

6 of the 13 killed were 20yrs old.  The oldest was one 31 yr old staff sergeant.  The rest were less than 25. One was a 23 year old female maintenance technician.  Likely they had no combat experience.  Why were they manning the gates?  Why was there not experienced special forces establishing a perimeter outside the gates?  Why did we abandon a military airbase that was designed to protect against these types of attacks?

These kids were left to the wolves for political reasons.  Most fresh out of boot camp.  Now dead because of their inept leaders.

"I'm not supposed to take any questions"

Maybe Biden's handlers should tell him to stop saying shit like that because it kind of, I don't know, gives the impression he's not actually in charge.

This country has no president.

posted by gut

"I'm not supposed to take any questions"

Maybe Biden's handlers should tell him to stop saying shit like that because it kind of, I don't know, gives the impression he's not actually in charge.

This shit happens all the time.  It's quite common.  Standard practice.  Apparently you are one of the unwashed that are unaware of youtube, the internet and the dastardly Richard Nixon.  Just ask Ptown.

posted by majorspark

You can keep telling yourself that.  You are in a very small minority.  Whatever it takes I guess.  I am not talking about the the Taliban taking over Afghanistan but if you think the clusterfuck we have all seen unfold over the last couple of months was unavoidable and going to happen no matter who are leaders are, I don't know what to tell you.  If it was so predictable as you now say one would think there would be some preparation.

jfc dude lol

Certainly among the worst moments of all time in our military history.  I am glad the (now-ex) Marine called them out on it; took a helluva lot of courage to take the stand he has taken. 

Nearly a week later, and still no resignations or firings.  What a fucking disgrace. 

posted by like_that

So far the best defense (deflection) of Biden and Kamala completely botching this evacuation plan comes down to the following:

A. It’s Trump’s fault

B. This was going to happen anyway

C. Both

Yikes…

One can have a view that Biden made the overall right strategic call, but botched the actual execution. The fall of the Afghan government was going to happen. The failure by everyone was not seeing it was going to happen as fast as it did. A series of tactical errors led to this mess we are in now. 

I'm interested here in the libertarian take, as you all have been in favor of leaving/ reducing American forces for years. Would you all have done things differently and if so how? 

posted by majorspark

6 of the 13 killed were 20yrs old.  The oldest was one 31 yr old staff sergeant.  The rest were less than 25. One was a 23 year old female maintenance technician.  Likely they had no combat experience.  Why were they manning the gates?  Why was there not experienced special forces establishing a perimeter outside the gates?  Why did we abandon a military airbase that was designed to protect against these types of attacks?

These kids were left to the wolves for political reasons.  Most fresh out of boot camp.  Now dead because of their inept leaders.

Now there are valid points. Why wasn't Bagram kept open? Why were not more SIV removed before the fall of the government? Experts and human rights advocates have been on the administration for months saying that there needed to be urgency on getting people out. As you asked, why were there not more senior people at the check points? How did this bomber get access at this stage? All good questions. 

posted by QuakerOats

Certainly among the worst moments of all time in our military history.  I am glad the (now-ex) Marine called them out on it; took a helluva lot of courage to take the stand he has taken. 

Nearly a week later, and still no resignations or firings.  What a fucking disgrace. 

Read a fucking history book. This isn't even in the top 10.