posted by gut

Hillary could have been charged with all 3 of those statutes.  I remember Comey specifically citing an inability to prove intent.

You maybe haven't followed that closely, but here's the stuff that points to something well beyond having classified records:

- The GSA boxed up the records at the WH.  My guess is Trump has never touched them since leaving.

- The GSA was out in June to inventory the records.  Told Trump to put a lock on the storage closet.

- An insider allegedly told the DOJ about classified records, which prompted the warrant.

- I haven't seen it confirmed, but there was allegedly a subpoena issued in June.  Some things were supposedly turned over, and other things were being discussed.

Now the question you have to ask yourself is, if they knew what records he had [clearly they did], why did they take ALL the records?  If they knew where the records were [clearly they did], why was the warrant for basically the whole property?

Read the statutes in question with the above in mind.  Intent is why you get the broad warrant instead of a very specific one.

Then ask yourself this: Do you really believe Trump was attempting to sell any of this stuff?  And if it's so sensitive and dangerous, then why wait days before serving the warrant?

Like I said, the only real conclusion you can take from that is seizing all the records in search of a crime.  I'll chalk-up the couple of subpoenas/warrants related to Jan 6 that came out a day or two before as purely coincidental.

You can dismiss it all you want, but we've already seen multiple instances of abuse with the DOJ when it comes to Trump.

I'm with you until the sell part. I don't think they thought Trump was going to sell anything. I think it is more they were afraid some of the documents could fall into the wrong hands or be stolen. I also think the broad use of the search was to make sure they got everything. 

I disagree with your conclusion too. You may be right, but until we see the actual reports and documents I think you are reaching. I think you are conflating a lot trying to link this is 1/6 when the two are completely separate. 

posted by jmog

Wait, are you still under the believe that the DOJ didn’t bring trumped up BS to the FISA court with the made up Steele dossier for political reasons years ago?

We have beaten that horse. We just disagree on it. 

posted by gut

Well, there was the recorded phone call which was pretty damning where Trump was asking them to "find 11,000 votes".

There also appears to have been a conspiracy to send false electors, which could be fraud.

Forget the Jan. 6th stuff.  The above was the real effort to steal the election.

I agree. The GA stuff does seem to have legs. The Giuliani stuff today is the latest. 

posted by friendfromlowry

For the love of God, can neither Biden or Trump run again. Somebody else please. 

1000% agree. But, I have a feeling we won't be so lucky. 

posted by gut

Funny thing is, inflation actually slowed slightly month-over-month.  And to me that non-spin is more effective for multiple reasons.  But this is, again, an almost re-defining like with "recession".

It's like a cop saying "any idea how fast you were just going".  Well, I had the cruise control set on 80 so therefore my speed was 0...

Yeah. Biden got roasted, correctly, online. 

Dumb argument they made. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

We have beaten that horse. We just disagree on it. 

If you don’t agree with what I said then you are factually wrong.  Not my opinion that you are wrong, but factually wrong.

posted by jmog

If you don’t agree with what I said then you are factually wrong.  Not my opinion that you are wrong, but factually wrong.

Nope. We just disagree on the facts of the issue. We will never see eye to eye on it. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I disagree with your conclusion too. You may be right, but until we see the actual reports and documents I think you are reaching. I think you are conflating a lot trying to link this is 1/6 when the two are completely separate.

I'm not conflating anything with 1/6.  They took EVERYTHING.  Every document relating to his time in office, including privileged information.  That goes far beyond retrieving documents marked classified. 

If the purpose was to recover classified documents, the search and what they took would have been more limited - Garland gaslit you when he pretended the search was narrow in scope.  If the purpose was as innocuous as you suggest, they'd immediately appoint an independent judge to review and return materials unrelated to classified documents.

The search was justified. I'm not arguing that.  But it's blatantly obvious the search was used as a pretext to go fishing.  I'm not saying 1/6, I'm saying ANY crime they can find.  Or perhaps any crime their media friends can imagine and falsely claim there's evidence of. 

Couple months of drip drip drip until the midterms.  How CONVENIENT.

posted by gut

I'm not conflating anything with 1/6.  They took EVERYTHING.  Every document relating to his time in office, including privileged information.  That goes far beyond retrieving documents marked classified. 

If the purpose was to recover classified documents, the search and what they took would have been more limited - Garland gaslit you when he pretended the search was narrow in scope.  If the purpose was as innocuous as you suggest, they'd immediately appoint an independent judge to review and return materials unrelated to classified documents.

The search was justified. I'm not arguing that.  But it's blatantly obvious the search was used as a pretext to go fishing.  I'm not saying 1/6, I'm saying ANY crime they can find.  Or perhaps any crime their media friends can imagine and falsely claim there's evidence of. 

Couple months of drip drip drip until the midterms.  How CONVENIENT.

You jump to political reasons and justifications and I am more in the wait until we see let's see what else comes out before jumping to conclusions. I see an equal possible scenario that they are letting the legal process play out. 

I think we largely agree on the facts though.

All governments lie.  By their very nature they are political and will operate in that manner.  They are a necessary evil.  It's healthy to be skeptical of their motives.  Given the Russia hoax we were subjected to, the two failed impeachments, count me as highly skeptical of their motives in this case.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

You jump to political reasons and justifications and I am more in the wait until we see let's see what else comes out before jumping to conclusions. I see an equal possible scenario that they are letting the legal process play out. 

I think we largely agree on the facts though.

Their surveillance with a bogus FISA warrant when he was running is valid past evidence to “jump to political reasons” now.

posted by majorspark

All governments lie.  By their very nature they are political and will operate in that manner.  They are a necessary evil.  It's healthy to be skeptical of their motives.  Given the Russia hoax we were subjected to, the two failed impeachments, count me as highly skeptical of their motives in this case.

Governments sure, but bureaucracies follow procedures, sometimes too much. But, I'm with you, but it is one thing to be skeptical and another to assume all actions by the DOJ are political and not rooted in the law or process. 

I'll also disagree with the whole Russia hoax concept. Sounds like you are bias toward an outcome already. 

posted by jmog

Their surveillance with a bogus FISA warrant when he was running is valid past evidence to “jump to political reasons” now.

Again we just disagree on the facts of the whole thing. We are speaking different languages. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

We have beaten that horse. We just disagree on it. 

It can't be disagreed with; it is a FACT that the FBI/DoJ presented the FISA court with fraudulent documents.  They were reprimanded for it by the FISA court judge; they should have served jail time for such an outrageous criminal offense. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Again we just disagree on the facts of the whole thing. We are speaking different languages. 

Opinions can be disagreed on, facts can not. This isn't reality to say "we don't agree on the facts". 

But that botched warrant gives credence to this one being political in nature as well.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

You jump to political reasons and justifications and I am more in the wait until we see let's see what else comes out before jumping to conclusions. I see an equal possible scenario that they are letting the legal process play out. 

I think we largely agree on the facts though.

How many more warrants, arrests, handcuffs, and shows of force do you need.  Just about everyone associated with Trump has been targeted, improperly treated, falsely accused, and some financially destroyed.  When you start counting them all you can quite clearly see the pattern.  It is beyond belief that we have those in power attacking their political opponents with the force of the security state; this isn't Cuba or Russia for Christ's sake.  Are we just going to trash anyone's civil liberties that the powerful left disagrees with.  

We are in big fucking trouble if this is not rectified.

posted by jmog

Opinions can be disagreed on, facts can not. This isn't reality to say "we don't agree on the facts". 

posted by jmog

Opinions can be disagreed on, facts can not. This isn't reality to say "we don't agree on the facts". 

But that botched warrant gives credence to this one being political in nature as well.

If we have learned one thing over the past 6+ years, it is two people can look at the same information and come to widely different conclusions. 

This is one of those times. We will never see eye to eye on anything regarding Trump and the DOJ, Mueller, Russia, etc.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fisa-court-judge-rebukes-fbi-over-handling-of-wiretap-applications/

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/475053-fisa-courts-rebuke-of-the-fbi-it-broke-or-ignored-the-rules-and-our/

The presiding judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) has issued a stinging rebuke to the FBI in the wake of Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz’s report on the bureau’s serial abuses in the surveillance of Carter Page.

In the FISC’s assessment, the derelictions in the Page surveillance warrants are so serious, the court’s judges cannot be confident that any warrant applications the FBI has submitted are accurate and complete — i.e., that the bureau’s assertions have been true and, even if true, were not misleading because of the omission of relevant information. 

Consequently, in an extraordinary public order on Tuesday, the secret court’s presiding judge, Rosemary Collyer, directed the Justice Department and the FBI to conduct a thorough review of all submissions the bureau has made to the FISC. They have about three weeks (until Jan. 10, 2020) to explain what steps have been taken to assure the candor of each submission.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/17/judge-fbi-surveillance-applications-086709

But experts on the court said a public order like Collyer’s that said the government’s credibility was in doubt across the board, in all cases, was a rarity. Analysts also said the unusual statement indicated that Collyer recognizes that the court’s own credibility is at stake.

“What is unusual about this is it was blasted out to the public and it clearly is addressed not only to the FBI but also to the readers of Mr. Horowitz’s report,” said Steven Aftergood of the Federation of American Scientists think tank. “It’s a struggle for the legitimacy of the court. … The FBI took the biggest hit from the report, but the court also looks bad.”

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

So you can post memes in this topic but are too stupid to post them in the "memes only" topic?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/former-irs-whistleblower-says-government-will-target-middle-class-dems-inflation-bill-its-bulls-t

William Henck, a former Internal Revenue Service (IRS) lawyer who was forced out after making allegations of internal malfeasance, said the government will target middle-income Americans with new audits under the Inflation Reduction Act.

"The idea that they're going to open things up and go after these big billionaires and large corporations is quite frankly bulls--t," Henck told FOX Business in an interview.

"There will be considerable incentive to basically to shake down taxpayers, and the advantage the IRS has is they have basically unlimited resources and no accountability, whereas a taxpayer has to weigh the cost of accountants, tax lawyers — fighting something in tax court," Henck told FOX Business.

Henck said during his time at the agency, he had observed IRS agents specifically targeting elderly taxpayers, some of whom were World War II veterans, because they could easily be forced into settlements.

"I protested both internally and externally, but I was ignored," he told FOX Business. "In their last days on Earth, these taxpayers were being bullied by the same government they had fought for as young men and no one cared."

posted by superman

So you can post memes in this topic but are too stupid to post them in the "memes only" topic?

You’ve got me figured out once again.  Great post.  

Why are the Dems calling this bill great for (bullshit) climate change and healthcare? Thought it was supposed to be anti inflation?? Weird that Biden was just on vacation in sc and now back in Delaware too, I’m old enough to remember when that was bad…