Coaching Ethics....

• MANAZE

  

  Over in the Creek thread there is a debate going on about how a student shouldn't be missing practice in Aug. because of a family vacation and how it should be ok for a coach to hit a student.
  
  How does the rest of the huddle feel about this kind of problems going on in sports along with how the coach should handle these and other types of problems that might come up during the "off-season".
  
  IMO there should never be a reason for a coach to ever lay his hands on a player. No excuses if you can't handle a high school student you shouldn't be coaching.
  
  Also if you are a student and your family can only take a vacation in Aug. then that is when you go. It is not up to the coach to punish the kid because his parents are working people that might only have the one week to go. Family over football.
  
  And one thing that was stated was that a coach should run a kid till he throws up if he isn't practicing hard because it is "just practice". IMO if the kid doesn't want to practice than guess what don't play him on Friday. No matter how good the player is no one is above the team and if he has to sit out a week it might get through is head better that if he doesn't practice he won't play.
• The_end_of_overlook

  As I stated before being part of the team is a privilege, not a right. If you commit to being on a team you are committing to be at practice and work hard, and do the best for your team. To many kids think they are just supposed to be on the team and show up and should get to play. Not reality, like in life hard work will get you on the field, and make you excel as a player. We are teaching our kids bad habits by letting them join a team or play a sport knowing they will have to miss practices. Things like doctor’s apts., legal issues and such will arise and every coach will handle them differently. And for the case of missing a week of practice for vacation, if your kid misses that much time and is still on the team, i think it is safe to assume they won't play much. Teach your kids they are choosing to play and that choice may dictate a little bit of their life.
  
  Oh yeah a coach should never hit a player. I can agree with you on that.
• fb167

  I pretty much agree with what was said ^^^^.
  
  While family should be above football in priorities. I wouldn't punish the player with conditioning. On the other hand, I wouldn't punish the kids who were there at practice and just give the player his starting job back (given that he is a starter; chances are this isn't a move made by a starter). Overtime, if the vacationer works hard and proves to earn his job back then so be it, but it will take some time to overcome. As for the family having only one time to take vacation. Take the vacation, enjoy the time away, then tell your son to work hard and try to reclaim his role on the team.
  
  As said before, if you can't coach without putting your hands on a player you shouldn't be around kids to start with. Also, another big issue that is on the rise is profanity. While we are not coaching the church choir, we also aren't coaching the New York Jets either a little moderation and self-control could be used by some coaches.
• The_end_of_overlook

  1. Originally Posted by sonofsam
  I do not have any kids of my own, however my girlfriend does. What you said is THE PROBLEM that a lot of football teams have these days. When you drop your kid off at practice, you are entrusting that coach to treat your child as if they were his own... The problem is that TOO MANY parents coddle their kids and in this sue happy world a coach is limited to letting kids get away with things during practices and games. A good example is a family taking a week vacation at the beginning of August and taking their child/player with them. What is a coach supposed to do? He cannot force a player to fore go the vacation and fulfill his commitment to the team... Another is when a kid at practice slacks off and acts lazy and when confronted says "its just practice"... I would hope that if I had a kid and he said something like this, the coach would run him until he pukes and give him an attitude adjustment in the locker room as well as tell me about the incident because there will be consequences for that kind of behavior toward a coach and team. Plain and simple it comes down to this... Kids are coddled to damn much these days and I am not that kind of person.
  Manaze
  Family comes before football. Are you saying as a parent who works I shouldn't be allowed to take my vacation in Aug. if that is the only time that I can take it? Also if a coach can not get a kid caught up missing one week of practice than that coach needs fired.
  
  If a kid doesn't want to practice you don't have to run him till he pukes just don't play him on Friday and he'll figure it out or quit.
  
  And the other stuff father of the year and whatever until you actully become one you have no idea what it really takes and what it feels like to be one and if/when that day ever happens your feelings will change.
  ________________________________________
  2. Today 05:04 PM #656
  The_end_of_overlook
  Manaze,
  Family does come first. However, if you have made a commitment to a team then that commitment should come first. This is part of the problem we see today; there is no real commitment from the players or the parents. What does a kid learn in the long run if he is allowed to miss practice and assume he should be able to play when he returns? A week of 2 a days is actually 2 weeks of regular practice so you are wrong when you say a coach should be able to catch them up. First off it is impossible to catch up on the conditioning they missed. Next if you let a player miss a week of practice for vacation you have now opened a can of worms when it comes to missing practice because if vacation is excused then so should be back to school shopping, and everything else. A major issue with our high school kids is their lack of commitment. They don't think there is a cost to be part of the team they see it as something they should do. It is not, it’s something you earn, it’s something you work for and when once you r earn that spot on the team you them are sacrificing other things in life, because of your choice to be on the team. No one made your kid be on the team, they chose to, therefore they are choosing to miss family vacation because it is football season. Sports at the high school level are about teaching kids lifelong lessons that are hard to get in the traditional classroom. Teaching them responsibility, work ethic, discipline, and team work are a part of playing sports, however, our kids will never learn those things if we give them the easy way out as parents. Be a parent and make the right choice. If your kid wants to be part of the team make them commit and do it right. Parents would rather be friends than parents now.
  ________________________________________
  3. Today 06:41 PM #657
  MANAZE
  The real problem is people think that football is everything when it is not. Playing high school football does not teach work ethic, discipline, or whatever else you think it teaches. If that was the case we wouldn't have so many student athletes who do not know how to spell their last name. If you make a commitment to play a sport than you should be there to play it but if something like a family vacation comes up there is no reason why a student should be punished because he has miss it to practice. Like I said what happened to coaches that knew how to coach and didn't need 11 months out of a students year to make them a better football player?
  
  You think the parents are the problem and in a lot of cases you might be right but when a student has to give up his life to play football it is not worth it. Let kids be kids because the last time I check you are only young once.
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  4. Today 07:04 PM #658
  The_end_of_overlook
  Football is not everything. I always liked to see kids have a priority list. For example
  God
  Family
  School
  And then… Football
  
  This is great, however sometimes choosing to commit to something my cause you to occasionally alter your priorities and a better way to put it is they may have to learn how to juggle their priorities.
  
  Next comment, if your student athlete does not know how to read or write there are two possible situations that could cause this. 1st either the parents didn't commit to their child’s educational needs, which falls under the case of educational neglect. Or the second option; You as a parent failed to realize that your school has failed your student either to identify a learning disability or has just past them on, and shame on you for not addressing that, and in this world of open enrollment and private schools, and educational option you should have chose to send you child elsewhere. So once again that’s a fail on the parent for not catching it and getting it fixed.
  
  Finally, your right sports should be fun. But with this day and age and the idea of everyone wanting to win all the time, to be able to compete you must work as harder as or harder than others (part of learning work ethic). If you don't want your kid to commit, work, and get better during the offseason than you can not complain about losing in season. Which brings me to this. Mr. Rogers boned America; he got people to believe that everyone is special. Well we know that’s not reality. You’re only special if you do special things. For example: work hard, being a leader, being a team leader, and being discipline. I don't care if it is school, work, or your home life those things will make you special. Where will you learn those things, lots of place, one of which being sports.
  
  P.S. i will agree coaching isn't what it used to be, but I will also say the same for student athletes and parenting.
• The_end_of_overlook

  The message above is part of the convo from the indian creek thread...
• GoChiefs

  

  As a parent, football is just an extra-curricular activity. If I want to plan a vacation, I'm sure not going to revolve my arrangements around a football game. With that being said, anything short of an emergency or because of me, my son better be there giving 110%.
  
  And Coach or not, you lay your hands on my son, you're dealing with me next.
• holdingout

  MANAZE;613941 wrote:Over in the Creek thread there is a debate going on about how a student shouldn't be missing practice in Aug. because of a family vacation and how it should be ok for a coach to hit a student.
  
  How does the rest of the huddle feel about this kind of problems going on in sports along with how the coach should handle these and other types of problems that might come up during the "off-season".
  
  IMO there should never be a reason for a coach to ever lay his hands on a player. No excuses if you can't handle a high school student you shouldn't be coaching.
  
  Also if you are a student and your family can only take a vacation in Aug. then that is when you go. It is not up to the coach to punish the kid because his parents are working people that might only have the one week to go. Family over football.
  
  And one thing that was stated was that a coach should run a kid till he throws up if he isn't practicing hard because it is "just practice". IMO if the kid doesn't want to practice than guess what don't play him on Friday. No matter how good the player is no one is above the team and if he has to sit out a week it might get through is head better that if he doesn't practice he won't play.

  
  
  In our society today, there's no such thing as "off season" any more. The coaches of today want your kid 12 months a year.
• MANAZE

  

  I don't like that whole 12 months a year dedication to football. When my grandfather played they didn't see the coach to the first week of Aug., when I played in the early 2000s we had weight training all year round, summer weight lifting and running, then in July we had "non"mandatory pad-less practices, then Aug. started doubles. Plus we had practice at 6 or 6:30 in the morning. It was fun being around all your friends but when you look back on all the fun things you missed out on, only to go 6-4 or worst it just doesn't seem worth it now. Of course if we would of had a better coach and made the playoffs my thoughts on it might be different.
• BlueJayRay

  Read the comments above, and then you may begin to understand how DSJ has dominated D-6 football... No family that has a child on the DSJ team would even consider taking a vacation during football preseason, and if they did, the kids would go ballistic! This is not done because of a coaching edict or rule, but because everyone realizes that it would be counterproductive to the good of the team. When other teams are willing to commit to that kind of discipline they may level the playing field... not until.
• GoChiefs

  

  BlueJayRay;615449 wrote:Read the comments above, and then you may begin to understand how DSJ has dominated D-6 football... No family that has a child on the DSJ team would even consider taking a vacation during football preseason, and if they did, the kids would go ballistic! This is not done because of a coaching edict or rule, but because everyone realizes that it would be counterproductive to the good of the team. When other teams are willing to commit to that kind of discipline they may level the playing field... not until.

  
  Fantastic. DSJ has a winning program, but their kids have no lives I guess, besides football. Sorry. That won't fly in my household. Football is just a game. I love the sport, but in the end, it's still just that...a game.
• icredskins

  

  Football is a team sport and does take commitment from the kids, parents and coaches. If a kid signs up to play, he knows what is expected from him, as should the parents. Coaches typically give you a calendar in the spring showing you when practices are scheduled. Make your plans around that calendar. Two-a-days are mandatory participation. If a family plans a vacation during those weeks, then don't expect little Johnny to be starting on Friday night. Family is first, and I don't think coaches would have it any other way, but while your at practice and in the weight room, you better give 110%.
  
  As far as coaches being physical with the players. There's gonna be some contact between a coach and a player, but there is a fine line between acceptable contact and abuse. Jerking on a facemask so severely as to hurt the players neck, that's abuse, as is shoving a player to the ground or throwing a forearm to their chin. (things some coaches I know have done). Getting in a player's face when they screw up, or taking them out of a game because they do should be expected and parents that think their kid doesn't deserve that are living in a fantasy world.
• ernest_t_bass

  

  I am a softball coach and I deal with Spring break every year. We have to have practices during spring break b/c games start the following week, and sometimes the week of. If it is just practices the kids miss, then I lay it all on the line before they go, so they have the decision.
  
  Miss full week - Miss three games.
  Miss Friday before + full week - Miss four games.
  Miss a game - Sit a game
  
  The guy I coached with before was indecisive and didn't show integrity in his decisions. He would tell the girls that would go on spring break that they had to miss three games. Well, when they came back, it just so happened that one of the games was a league game. He couldn't stand the thought of losing a league game b/c of this, so he let the girls play, then sit the next. That sent the wrong message to the girls.
  
  So, when I took over, they knew what the punishment for missing would be before hand, before going on SB. I tell them this - "If you are going on Spring break, go have a great time. I don't want you going, thinking about softball, b/c that will ruin your trip. We are in agreement that the punishment for missing is just and fair. When you return, you will sit "X" games, and you will have to earn your spot back on the roster."
  
  I haven't had one issue yet, in three years.
• Thinthickbigred

  MANAZE;615172 wrote:I don't like that whole 12 months a year dedication to football. When my grandfather played they didn't see the coach to the first week of Aug., when I played in the early 2000s we had weight training all year round, summer weight lifting and running, then in July we had "non"mandatory pad-less practices, then Aug. started doubles. Plus we had practice at 6 or 6:30 in the morning. It was fun being around all your friends but when you look back on all the fun things you missed out on, only to go 6-4 or worst it just doesn't seem worth it now. Of course if we would of had a better coach and made the playoffs my thoughts on it might be different.

  
  Kids play other sports but football is a 12 month deal . It isnt for everybody .
• Thinthickbigred

  @ Manaze original post ... First a family has a right to take vacation anytime they want . If the kid is on the team he will probably lose his starting job if he has one ,but I wouldnt throw him off the team .. doubles are only 2 weeks and everybody has got to put in the time ...Also if a kid isnt practicing well or dogging it .. He may be after practice for a long time running 100's ..He will either quit the team when I am done with him or he will conform to my structure. Being lazy will not do.
  As for a coach hitting players . i got hit in the gut but that was a long time ago helmet slaps and grabbing of facemasks are normal .. It aint pee wee league .. tighten it up ... A good coach will sit down with parents before season and explain his methods ,but he cant be always looking over his shoulder at overprotective parents IMO...If you dont like his methods then send him to Toronto or someplace ...
• icredskins

  

  ThinThick, yes helmet slaps and grabbing the facemask are normal and the parent shouldn't be upset if it happens to their kid. I'm talking about grabbing the facemask and throwing the kid on the ground, then when he gets back up, do it again. Or throwing a forearm to a kids jaw causing him neck injury. Now does a parent have the right to complain about that? Or are they being overprotective of little Johnny?
• Thinthickbigred

  ^^^^^^ That stuff is just crazy man ... That is out of line ... I mean I took some good shots to the gut , or a good ring noogie when not in uniform ,but throwing a kid down by the facemask are you serious ? What knucklehead coach did that ? or are you just speculating? .. Forearm to a kids jaw is crazy too unless it was an accident maybe coach came up to high ,that could happen I guess ... You dont physically abuse a kid if you are angry with his actions , you run him till he quits , or if the kid did something so bad then he just needs told to turn his stuff in ... Ive seen that plenty in my days
• Thinthickbigred

  If you want to see some real stupid crap go to a pee wee practice or Pee wee game of certain teams ... Man they treat those little kids like they were frigging high schoolers .... At a lower level in developing football the methods of teaching should be based around having fun .. That keeps a kids attention .. Letting all the kids play is a must in pee wee .. I have seen some real Buttholes coaching pee wee teams and some of the fans are not much better ... It is a spectacle
• Gardens35

  If a coach even considers "running this kid until he quits", the coach should either reevaluate himself or GTHO.
• sonofsam

  

  I also agree that there is a line between "physical attitude adjustment" and abuse... If a coach is ripping a kids head off for not catching a pass then there is a problem... But if your kid is lazy and practicing "half-ass" then he may need a "personal contact adjustment". I am not afraid to say that I had a few of those adjustments and they worked. They did not cross the line at all and were well-warranted. I also took a hit in practice to the head and felt a bunch of pops in my neck... I went to the ground and I went numb for about a minute. Coach Sam was the first one on his knee checking me out and he listen to me at that point... I told him how I felt and he took the appropriate precautions... Being 18 and stupid I popped right back up after I got feeling back and said I was fine. My neck still hurts to this day. If parents get to know a coach instead of trying to do his job, they will understand and respect that coach to look after their kid...
• Thinthickbigred

  Gardens35;618676 wrote:If a coach even considers "running this kid until he quits", the coach should either reevaluate himself or GTHO.

  
  It was more or less a figure of speech but if Im thinking about the quality of kid"s" that are being talked about ,then it wouldnt take much running to make a bad team player quit ...and Im not talking about your overweight bench warmer who doesnt need abused .. I am talking about a potentiallly good player ,who's attitude is detrimental to the team ... You have to discern the difference between kids ... I wont have a kid that has a big name for instance think that he can just do as he wishes caus his brother was a star or his dad a bigtime lawyer ,get where i am at better
• Gardens35

  Yes, I get where you are now.
  
  I'm a believer in the "Break 'em down, Build 'em up" methodology.
  
  If a coach has a kid who is a total detriment to the team and he's exhausted all means to turn the kid around, he's got to be the one who removes the kid from the team, not induce the kid to quit.
• GoChiefs

  

  Thinthickbigred;618661 wrote:If you want to see some real stupid crap go to a pee wee practice or Pee wee game of certain teams ... Man they treat those little kids like they were frigging high schoolers .... At a lower level in developing football the methods of teaching should be based around having fun .. That keeps a kids attention .. Letting all the kids play is a must in pee wee .. I have seen some real Buttholes coaching pee wee teams and some of the fans are not much better ... It is a spectacle

  
  I definitely agree there. Had to have a couple little 'chats' with my sons flag football coach during and after practice. I hate coaches that forget those kids are 7, 8, and 9 years old.
• Lakebluestreaks

  I don't think that anyone would actually argue in favor of a coach abusing a player. I'm talking about real abuse though. I guess the arguement is what is considered over the line. I have no problem with grabbing the facemask to make sure the kid is paying attention. I have no problem with problem kids being ran, or made to do pushups, or whatever. I do agree that if a coach doesn't want a kid on the team then he should boot him out.
• NNN

  

  MANAZE;613941 wrote:Over in the Creek thread there is a debate going on about how a student shouldn't be missing practice in Aug. because of a family vacation and how it should be ok for a coach to hit a student.
  
  How does the rest of the huddle feel about this kind of problems going on in sports along with how the coach should handle these and other types of problems that might come up during the "off-season".
  
  IMO there should never be a reason for a coach to ever lay his hands on a player. No excuses if you can't handle a high school student you shouldn't be coaching.
  
  Also if you are a student and your family can only take a vacation in Aug. then that is when you go. It is not up to the coach to punish the kid because his parents are working people that might only have the one week to go. Family over football.
  
  And one thing that was stated was that a coach should run a kid till he throws up if he isn't practicing hard because it is "just practice". IMO if the kid doesn't want to practice than guess what don't play him on Friday. No matter how good the player is no one is above the team and if he has to sit out a week it might get through is head better that if he doesn't practice he won't play.

  Before my senior year, there was a span of about one week where I'd be able to do college visits, which entailed a trip with my mom and younger brother. I talked to the head coach well before, and he suggested that, if we got back a certain day, I'd be up and ready for two-a-days the very next day. He said, "Nah, take a day and unwind, even if it means missing the first day of two-a-days." Granted, we were no Indian Creek....we ended up within an ace of the state semis.
  
  As far as the idea of running someone into the ground or going anywhere beyond incidental physical contact, it's those who defend such things that convince everyone outside of football that everyone inside of football is the northbound end of a southbound brontosaurus. There'd have to be something incredibly serious, like an immediate risk to someone else, to justify anything beyond incidental contact. And unless a kid is being openly insubordinate or disrespectful or flat-out undisciplined, there's not a need for conditioning for the sake of punishment. Hell, why not just go back to the salt tablet days where everyone sucked on a collective wet sponge for hydration?
• Con_Alma

  Conditioning is part of the game. It's part of football training.
  
  Why would any Coach want to associate a necessary part of the game with the negative connotation of punishment?
  
  Doesn't make sense. As a Coach I wouldn't want to make kids hate any part of the game of the preparation to play. There are plenty of ways to "punish". Conditioning shouldn't be one of them. Conditioning is something you do to be prepared to play.