Ohio Chatter DEV

DaBrowns41

miller45452003 wrote:
iclfan2 wrote: The OBR said "Cribbs told close associates within the last 48 hours that he felt "disrespected" by the team's offer, which was under $2 million".
Ouch...if thats the case, that is a little disrespectful. I think he's making around 1.25 this past year. They probably made that lowball offer to him, due to the fact he's asking for 6mil when in all fairness they will probably land somewhere in the 3-4mil per year.

He only made 640k this year, and will make 720k next year.

The 1.4M that they offered isn't even close to the average of the top 10 paid KR's in the league.

Cleveland just needs to pay the man. Give him a deal around 2.45M with incentives for KR TD's, PR TD's, and maybe rushes, or something along that.

DaBrowns41

Per Schefter on ESPN's Mike and Mike in the Morning just a minute ago: "I don't like Mangini's chances, and we could find out today the fate of Mangini".

pkebker

DaBrowns41 wrote:
pkebker wrote:
miller45452003 wrote: Here's the link showing Heckert withdrew his name the DAY Mangini was hired. So IMO if Heckert and Holmgren come to terms this afternoon, Mangini will be shown the door immediately...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=22646
Not the most reliable source, but its a good read...It does sound like Heckert has an excellent history in the draft...
Heckert is a great talent evaluator. I'd really love to see him in Cleveland because that would get rid of Mangini, and give us a guy that knows how to draft.

I also like this because, unlike Savage, he's a great businessman, and talent evaluator. He knows how to build that rapport with a team and the management.

Savage was strictly a talent evaluator that couldn't handle the roles of a GM.

Mangini has had some excellent drafts in NY...

DaBrowns41

pkebker wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
pkebker wrote:
miller45452003 wrote: Here's the link showing Heckert withdrew his name the DAY Mangini was hired. So IMO if Heckert and Holmgren come to terms this afternoon, Mangini will be shown the door immediately...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=22646
Not the most reliable source, but its a good read...It does sound like Heckert has an excellent history in the draft...
Heckert is a great talent evaluator. I'd really love to see him in Cleveland because that would get rid of Mangini, and give us a guy that knows how to draft.

I also like this because, unlike Savage, he's a great businessman, and talent evaluator. He knows how to build that rapport with a team and the management.

Savage was strictly a talent evaluator that couldn't handle the roles of a GM.
Mangini has had some excellent drafts in NY...

I think a lot of his drafts had a LOT of influence by Tannenbaum, personally.

Wooball

DaBrowns41 wrote:

He only made 640k this year, and will make 720k next year.

The 1.4M that they offered isn't even close to the average of the top 10 paid KR's in the league.

Cleveland just needs to pay the man. Give him a deal around 2.45M with incentives for KR TD's, PR TD's, and maybe rushes, or something along that.

Who are the top 10 paid KR's in the league? I keep seeing this thrown out there. Do these guys do other things besides return kicks? I am sure the Browns would be more than happy to do an incentive laden contract, but I'm sure Cribbs and his party are going to be opposed to that. Too much risk for a guy that plays probably the most dangerous position in football. Which is another reason I would be reluctant to pay a KR much money.

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:

He only made 640k this year, and will make 720k next year.

The 1.4M that they offered isn't even close to the average of the top 10 paid KR's in the league.

Cleveland just needs to pay the man. Give him a deal around 2.45M with incentives for KR TD's, PR TD's, and maybe rushes, or something along that.

Who are the top 10 paid KR's in the league? I keep seeing this thrown out there. Do these guys do other things besides return kicks? I am sure the Browns would be more than happy to do an incentive laden contract, but I'm sure Cribbs and his party are going to be opposed to that. Too much risk for a guy that plays probably the most dangerous position in football. Which is another reason I would be reluctant to pay a KR much money.

He's not just a KR, he's a special teams ace, and he's found a spot with the offense in a Wildcat, and as a guy that can excel at screen passes, etc.

Not to mention, the guy is a game changer. He's not just another Dante Hall, who only really did well for a couple seasons. Cribbs has done this since we've had him, and has only been consistent. For a guy that gives us the ball on the 30-35 yardline almost every time, that alone is worth 1.5M, let alone giving him another .5-1M just for being a constant Pro-Bowler and an excellent team player, and leader.

pkebker

DaBrowns41 wrote:
pkebker wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
pkebker wrote:
miller45452003 wrote: Here's the link showing Heckert withdrew his name the DAY Mangini was hired. So IMO if Heckert and Holmgren come to terms this afternoon, Mangini will be shown the door immediately...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=22646
Not the most reliable source, but its a good read...It does sound like Heckert has an excellent history in the draft...
Heckert is a great talent evaluator. I'd really love to see him in Cleveland because that would get rid of Mangini, and give us a guy that knows how to draft.

I also like this because, unlike Savage, he's a great businessman, and talent evaluator. He knows how to build that rapport with a team and the management.

Savage was strictly a talent evaluator that couldn't handle the roles of a GM.
Mangini has had some excellent drafts in NY...
I think a lot of his drafts had a LOT of influence by Tannenbaum, personally.

I don't know. He has a history of first solidifying the OL (Mangold and Ferguson in NY, and Mack in Cleveland). Once the OL is complete, he began drafting more skill position players.

DaBrowns41

Ferguson, Mangold, Brad Smith, and Leon Washington. (Out of 10 picks)

David Harris and Darrelle Revis (Not bad for 2 picks out of 4).

Keller and Lowery (Out of 6 picks)

Vernon Gholston is looking like a bust.

He has done a solid job, but again, I think that Tannenbaum is more of the draft guy in New York, which is why they've had some solid drafts even prior to Mangini.

Wooball

I would give the guy 2 to 2.5 million. But for him to be upset because we only offered 1.5 on our first offer is where I have a problem. Why not just let these negotiations go a little bit before bringing this out to the public?

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote: I would give the guy 2 to 2.5 million. But for him to be upset because we only offered 1.5 on our first offer is where I have a problem. Why not just let these negotiations go a little bit before bringing this out to the public?

I think he's more upset with how Mangini, Kokonis, Savage, Crennel, Lerner, etc. have all said he'd be "taken care of", numerous times, yet we want to give him a 700-800k increase in salary, and that's it. Sounds like a ton of money to us, but to a guy that's putting his body on the line in kick returns, punts, kickoff coverage, punt coverage, and gets numerous touches and has done nothing but be productive, I don't think it's too much to ask to bump him from 620k to at least 2M.

Wooball

DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I would give the guy 2 to 2.5 million. But for him to be upset because we only offered 1.5 on our first offer is where I have a problem. Why not just let these negotiations go a little bit before bringing this out to the public?
I think he's more upset with how Mangini, Kokonis, Savage, Crennel, Lerner, etc. have all said he'd be "taken care of", numerous times, yet we want to give him a 700-800k increase in salary, and that's it. Sounds like a ton of money to us, but to a guy that's putting his body on the line in kick returns, punts, kickoff coverage, punt coverage, and gets numerous touches and has done nothing but be productive, I don't think it's too much to ask to bump him from 620k to at least 2M.

And if he is patient this offseason with the negotiations I'm sure we will get there.
This is all I am saying. With Josh Cribbs setting the world on fire the last two years, we have won a total of 9 games. I am glad that the front office is more interested in finding a GM And settling the coaching situation than worrying about what our kick returner wants in terms of dollars right now. And that is what he is. A special teams wonder. I agree that he is underpaid right now, but I don't think he is worth the 3.5-4 mill that he is asking for. And for him or his agent to say he isn't playing here again next year is great. Where is he going to go? Home? It's not like we have much invested in him, the Browns will let him sit at home before they just give him away.

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I would give the guy 2 to 2.5 million. But for him to be upset because we only offered 1.5 on our first offer is where I have a problem. Why not just let these negotiations go a little bit before bringing this out to the public?
I think he's more upset with how Mangini, Kokonis, Savage, Crennel, Lerner, etc. have all said he'd be "taken care of", numerous times, yet we want to give him a 700-800k increase in salary, and that's it. Sounds like a ton of money to us, but to a guy that's putting his body on the line in kick returns, punts, kickoff coverage, punt coverage, and gets numerous touches and has done nothing but be productive, I don't think it's too much to ask to bump him from 620k to at least 2M.
And if he is patient this offseason with the negotiations I'm sure we will get there.
This is all I am saying. With Josh Cribbs setting the world on fire the last two years, we have won a total of 9 games. I am glad that the front office is more interested in finding a GM And settling the coaching situation than worrying about what our kick returner wants in terms of dollars right now. And that is what he is. A special teams wonder. I agree that he is underpaid right now, but I don't think he is worth the 3.5-4 mill that he is asking for. And for him or his agent to say he isn't playing here again next year is great. Where is he going to go? Home? It's not like we have much invested in him, the Browns will let him sit at home before they just give him away.

But how long can you expect a guy to be patient? 3 years, 4 years? He's been hearing false promises for the last 2.5-3 seasons now. It's time for the Browns staff to get to work on this. It should be a top 3 priority.

Wooball

DaBrowns41 wrote:
But how long can you expect a guy to be patient? 3 years, 4 years? He's been hearing false promises for the last 2.5-3 seasons now. It's time for the Browns staff to get to work on this. It should be a top 3 priority.

I would rate it:
GM
Coach
Harrison
Cribbs

I understand he has been waiting a couple years. But is it too much to ask to give this new regime at least a couple weeks. If we start nearing mid February and they are no closer then fine, do what you have to do to try to force negotiations. But to start this already is a little foolish in my opinion.

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
But how long can you expect a guy to be patient? 3 years, 4 years? He's been hearing false promises for the last 2.5-3 seasons now. It's time for the Browns staff to get to work on this. It should be a top 3 priority.

I would rate it:
GM
Coach
Harrison
Cribbs

I understand he has been waiting a couple years. But is it too much to ask to give this new regime at least a couple weeks. If we start nearing mid February and they are no closer then fine, do what you have to do to try to force negotiations. But to start this already is a little foolish in my opinion.

Well, the coach is figured out, apparently.

Why do you think Harrison should be a higher priority? A guy that's been productive for the last 3-4 games should be a higher priority over a guy that's been productive for the last 3-4 years?

pkebker

Wooball wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
But how long can you expect a guy to be patient? 3 years, 4 years? He's been hearing false promises for the last 2.5-3 seasons now. It's time for the Browns staff to get to work on this. It should be a top 3 priority.

I would rate it:
GM
Coach
Harrison
Cribbs

I understand he has been waiting a couple years. But is it too much to ask to give this new regime at least a couple weeks. If we start nearing mid February and they are no closer then fine, do what you have to do to try to force negotiations. But to start this already is a little foolish in my opinion.

Why would Harrison rank higher than Cribbs. That doesn't make sense...

Wooball

I think Harrison has produced when he has been on the field. I feel comfortable with him on this roster as at least a part of a successful RBBC. His emergence to me took the need to take a CJ Spiller in this year's draft away (not that I would have endorsed that pick, just saw it as a possibility). I think Harrison's role on this team going forward is going to be more important that Josh Cribbs'. Especially if we move toward the WCO, which I would suspect even with the recent announcement of Mangini's return. Even though Cribbs went nuts in the KC game and scored a rushing TD in the game against JAX, we won those 3 games because of our ability to run the ball. JC had a huge impact on the Stillers game, but so did the weather and our pass rush (aka Pittsburgh's shitty O-Line and Big Ben holding onto the ball).

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote: I think Harrison has produced when he has been on the field. I feel comfortable with him on this roster as at least a part of a successful RBBC. His emergence to me took the need to take a CJ Spiller in this year's draft away (not that I would have endorsed that pick, just saw it as a possibility). I think Harrison's role on this team going forward is going to be more important that Josh Cribbs'. Especially if we move toward the WCO, which I would suspect even with the recent announcement of Mangini's return. Even though Cribbs went nuts in the KC game and scored a rushing TD in the game against JAX, we won those 3 games because of our ability to run the ball. JC had a huge impact on the Stillers game, but so did the weather and our pass rush (aka Pittsburgh's shitty O-Line and Big Ben holding onto the ball).

I understand what you're saying, but a few great games doesn't make you worthy of a new contract. It's about consistency, which is exactly what Cribbs has done. Everybody just wants to look at KR's for Cribbs, and he does much more than that. He's always making a special teams tackle, he's taking offensive snaps in the wildcat, he's running reverses, bubble screens, etc.

Cribbs is a weapon that 31 other teams in the NFL wish they had. Not that other teams don't want Harrison, but you also can't dismiss that his productivity has been against some of the worst defenses in the league. Also, I don't think that Harrison is bad, I'm just saying that he's got to show consistency.

Cribbs is priority #2, right now only to a GM, which I think could be close to being solved.

pkebker

Here's a quirky stat I just heard on NFL Live...

Eric Mangini has had a winning record for every even number year (2006, 2008), and a losing record every odd number year (2007, 2009).

I obviously don't put much stock in this...But possibly a good sign for next season?

DaBrowns41

pkebker wrote: Here's a quirky stat I just heard on NFL Live...

Eric Mangini has had a winning record for every even number year (2006, 2008), and a losing record every odd number year (2007, 2009).

I obviously don't put much stock in this...But possibly a good sign for next season?

Hopefully. Let's just hope that the trend doesn't stand, however. If we don't win the Super Bowl next season, but have a winning record, 2011 will be ever so disappointing. Lol.

Wooball

I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.

DaBrowns41

Wooball wrote: I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.

Assuming there's no CBA, he'll be a restricted FA, which means we'll tender him. Most likely for a 1st round value (I believe that's at like 2M), so that if somebody else wants him, they can sign him for a 1st rounder, while first giving us the opportunity to match.

pkebker

DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.
Assuming there's no CBA, he'll be a restricted FA, which means we'll tender him. Most likely for a 1st round value (I believe that's at like 2M), so that if somebody else wants him, they can sign him for a 1st rounder, while first giving us the opportunity to match.

So, if I am interpreting this correctly...Next season we will either have Harrison with a new deal, or another first round draft pick...Sounds like a win-win to me...

miller45452003

DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.
Assuming there's no CBA, he'll be a restricted FA, which means we'll tender him. Most likely for a 1st round value (I believe that's at like 2M), so that if somebody else wants him, they can sign him for a 1st rounder, while first giving us the opportunity to match.

Under the current agreement, I believe each team gets 2 tags. For '10, if they cant reach extensions on Harrison and D. Jackson, I would assume they would franchise them?? I would think so anyways...but this Holmgren guy has me wonderin'?

DaBrowns41

pkebker wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.
Assuming there's no CBA, he'll be a restricted FA, which means we'll tender him. Most likely for a 1st round value (I believe that's at like 2M), so that if somebody else wants him, they can sign him for a 1st rounder, while first giving us the opportunity to match.
So, if I am interpreting this correctly...Next season we will either have Harrison with a new deal, or another first round draft pick...Sounds like a win-win to me...

Essentially, yes.

The way that RFA works is that you tender a player at a specific salary.

So say we offer up 1.01M (these are specific numbers, actually) or 110% of his most recent salary and another team tenders him. We have the First Refusal Right, and a pick in the original round the player was drafted in. Basically, we can match the offer and retain the player, or take a pick in the round he was drafted in.

If we offer up 1.545M or 110% (whichever is greater), and a team tenders him, we'll have the First Refusal Right, and a pick in the 2nd round.

The next level is 2.18M for a 1st rounder.
The last level is 2.792M for a 1st and a 3rd.

Most teams use the last tier, basically saying that they are going to pay that player a salary of 2.792M and if another team wants him, they have to pay more than that and give out a 1st AND 3rd round pick.

DaBrowns41

miller45452003 wrote:
DaBrowns41 wrote:
Wooball wrote: I could be wrong on this, but isn't Harrison a free agent this offseason? If not, then we have no reason to renegotiate his contract. I had thought I heard his contract was up after this year, which is why I had him on that list. If he is not, then he has no reason to be on that list.
Assuming there's no CBA, he'll be a restricted FA, which means we'll tender him. Most likely for a 1st round value (I believe that's at like 2M), so that if somebody else wants him, they can sign him for a 1st rounder, while first giving us the opportunity to match.
Under the current agreement, I believe each team gets 2 tags. For '10, if they cant reach extensions on Harrison and D. Jackson, I would assume they would franchise them?? I would think so anyways...but this Holmgren guy has me wonderin'?

It'd be awfully expensive to franchise both. Remember when you Franchise a player, you're giving him the average salary of the top 5 paid players of his position.

So we'd have to pay Harrison the average salary of the top 5 RB's in the NFL, which would be quite a bit of money.

I don't think they'd do both. I would say that D'Qwell COULD get Franchised, but most likely he'll get a top tier deal forcing a team to give us a 1st and 3rd if they want him.

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