Battle of Ohio - Indians vs. Reds (2 @ CIN, 2 @ CLE)

• Laley23

  

  In their defense, that team is mind-numbingly frustrating to watch. Ive tuned in a lot, and they make last years Tribe team seem clutch with their batting when runners are on base. Its been comical at times.
  
  And Dusty Baker does suck.
• HitsRus

  

  ^^^The team has the 3rd best record in the NL? All players strike out with RISP. SMH. If they want something to complain about, let them try Wedge or Acta for a couple of years. Even if you don't like his in game management, you have to give him credit for whatever behind the scenes things that managers do that nets them an 11 game over .500 record 1/3 of the way into the season.
• Laley23

  

  HitsRus;1450475 wrote:^^^The team has the 3rd best record in the NL? All players strike out with RISP. SMH. If they want something to complain about, let them try Wedge or Acta for a couple of years. Even if you don't like his in game management, you have to give him credit for whatever behind the scenes things that managers do that nets them an 11 game over .500 record 1/3 of the way into the season.

  I understand. But I think they might be on pace for most runners LOB in a season lol. Like I said, its been pretty bad at times.
  
  At the same time, it shows how good they are. Gotta get guys on to leave them there. But still, it would be VERY frustrating at times.
• SportsAndLady

  

  HitsRus;1450475 wrote:^^^The team has the 3rd best record in the NL? All players strike out with RISP. SMH. If they want something to complain about, let them try Wedge or Acta for a couple of years. Even if you don't like his in game management, you have to give him credit for whatever behind the scenes things that managers do that nets them an 11 game over .500 record 1/3 of the way into the season.

  There's 2 kinds of frustrating. When your team just sucks. That's the first. The second is when your team is actually really, really good; yet you have incompetent coaches that take them from a "best record in baseball" team to a "sneaking into the playoffs team and lucky to win 1 series" team.
  
  Honestly, if the Reds and Indians swapped managers and coaches (and I'm not even sure who the Indians' hitting coach is, but he's gotta be better than Jacoby)...the Reds might be 40-14.
• se-alum

  

  HitsRus;1450475 wrote:^^^The team has the 3rd best record in the NL? All players strike out with RISP. SMH. If they want something to complain about, let them try Wedge or Acta for a couple of years. Even if you don't like his in game management, you have to give him credit for whatever behind the scenes things that managers do that nets them an 11 game over .500 record 1/3 of the way into the season.

  Take last night for example, Dusty sits Cozart, which is fine, but automatically plugs the .130 hitting Izturis into the 2-hole, and puts the .314 hitting .430 obp guy in the 8 hole. It makes absolutely no sense. Robinson has most everything you want in a 2-hitter, but Dusty just can't keep the SS out of the 2-hole. Wednesday night he said he expected Giambi to hit Bronson hard, but didn't want to risk wasting a reliever by warming him up and possibly not needing him. Last night he let Bailey give up all those runs because he didn't want to overwork his bullpen. He basically admitted to giving up on 2 games to save his bullpen.
• vball10set

  It's been a while...
  
  
• Dr Winston O'Boogie

  

  Man, when the Tribe's line up gets hot, they can really knock it around. Most of all last night, I was proud of Kazmir. He handled himself very well. It was a nice couple of wins to get them going into a tough stretch starting with the Rays this weekend.
  
  Go Tribe.
• like_that

  

  Dr Winston O'Boogie;1450638 wrote:Man, when the Tribe's line up gets hot, they can really knock it around. Most of all last night, I was proud of Kazmir. He handled himself very well. It was a nice couple of wins to get them going into a tough stretch starting with the Rays this weekend.
  
  Go Tribe.

  These last 2 weeks have been a tough stretch.
• HitsRus

  

  Dusty sits Cozart, which is fine, but automatically plugs the .130 hitting Izturis into the 2-hole, and puts the .314 hitting .430 obp guy in the 8 hole. It makes absolutely no sense

  You guys probably would love to have Francona, but all year long, despite them hitting .250 or less( mostly less) Tito, refuses to takle Kipnis or Druby out of the 2 and 3 holes. Meanwhile, he's got Brantley (who is arguably the Tribe's most consistent if not 'best' hitter) hitting 8th...the spot usually reserved for the weakest stick on the team.
  Who knows why they do what they do, but managers are judged by their results on the field, and most certainly, the Reds are a top team.
  

  Honestly, if the Reds and Indians swapped managers and coaches (and I'm not even sure who the Indians' hitting coach is, but he's gotta be better than Jacoby)...the Reds might be 40-14.

  
  Yeah?, and maybe not. The guy must be doing something right. You can't give the players all the credit when they do their jobs and hit, but blame the coach when they don't. Every coach is going to have his strengths and weaknesses...every coach is going to have points that he emphasizes, and others that he let's slide. You take the bad along with the good...and in the end, it's the bottom line that determines a manager/coach's fate. Case in point, the 94-2002 Indians, were consistently one of the best teams in MLB...yet Mike Hargrove was summarilly fired for failing to deliver a WS title. Did his sucessors do any better?.... including Charlie Manuel!
  
  Another thing to consider is that the reason that you have Brandon Phillips is that someone who was considered one of the best hitting coaches at the time (Derek Shelton) couldn't teach him to hit in an Indians uniform.
  
  For God's sake...enjoy your run with Baker and the boys and hope for the best. It's okay as fans to discuss strategies and criticize, but keep in mind that those guys (Baker especially) probably has forgotten more baseball that you'll ever know. Don't take yourselves so seriously.
• se-alum

  

  We got Phillips cause Eric Wedge hated him.
• HitsRus

  

  You got Phillips because he wouldn't/couldn't hit the way Wedge and Shelton wanted him and were insistent upon, and told them to shove it. They labelled him a troublemaker. Wedge would not stand for insubordination and he was furious that Phillips hit well in spring training doing it his own way. Phillips was never really insubordinate, he just was frustrated.
• Crimson streak

  

  HitsRus;1450672 wrote:You guys probably would love to have Francona, but all year long, despite them hitting .250 or less( mostly less) Tito, refuses to takle Kipnis or Druby out of the 2 and 3 holes. Meanwhile, he's got Brantley (who is arguably the Tribe's most consistent if not 'best' hitter) hitting 8th...the spot usually reserved for the weakest stick on the team.
  Who knows why they do what they do, but managers are judged by their results on the field, and most certainly, the Reds are a top team.
  
  
  [/B] Yeah?, and maybe not. The guy must be doing something right. You can't give the players all the credit when they do their jobs and hit, but blame the coach when they don't. Every coach is going to have his strengths and weaknesses...every coach is going to have points that he emphasizes, and others that he let's slide. You take the bad along with the good...and in the end, it's the bottom line that determines a manager/coach's fate. Case in point, the 94-2002 Indians, were consistently one of the best teams in MLB...yet Mike Hargrove was summarilly fired for failing to deliver a WS title. Did his sucessors do any better?.... including Charlie Manuel!
  
  Another thing to consider is that the reason that you have Brandon Phillips is that someone who was considered one of the best hitting coaches at the time (Derek Shelton) couldn't teach him to hit in an Indians uniform.
  
  For God's sake...enjoy your run with Baker and the boys and hope for the best. It's okay as fans to discuss strategies and criticize, but keep in mind that those guys (Baker especially) probably has forgotten more baseball that you'll ever know. Don't take yourselves so seriously.

  
  Drubs has been coming around and kipnis was batting over 300 in may until I believe the last week. Kipnis and drubs have always been streaky hitters but when their hot they can carry an offense. I'm fine with how Tito has the line up. It makes that bottom of the order very tough with Reynolds hitting 7th and Brantley 6th or 8th
• se-alum

  

  I know Dusty's strategy is to put a bad hitter in front of Votto and hope he gets better pitches to hit. I'm okay with Cozart there, because he does have some pop and has shown the ability to hit at a high level, just inconsistently. I don't understand just automatically throwing Izturis in that spot when you have a more prototypical 2 hitter also playing that day in D-Rob.
• HitsRus

  

  Crimson streak;1450725 wrote:Drubs has been coming around and kipnis was batting over 300 in may until I believe the last week. Kipnis and drubs have always been streaky hitters but when their hot they can carry an offense. I'm fine with how Tito has the line up. It makes that bottom of the order very tough with Reynolds hitting 7th and Brantley 6th or 8th

  I don't have a problem, but if the Tribe's record was well under .500 I'd probably be carping about it. Those guys were hitting below the Mendoza line for quite a while, and Tito never budged them from their spot in the lineup. That's why managers get paid big bucks...because in the end, it's not about how well you follow conventional wisdom, but whether you are putting up W's.
  
  I know that Red's fans don't like Baker's unconventional strategies, but the team is playing .600+ baseball. It's pretty hard not to like that.
  
  Fans are pretty fickle sometimes ( and I include myself in that description) and we overreact if our expectations aren't met. I was talking to some of the 'locals' on the HS baseball forum the past month, and some of them are ready to string up their coach who I've known as one of the best guys in the area....because he team had some troubles and they expected a lot more. Well, he has his team in the regional finals.....What's to hate?
• BRF

  

  Hits: ha ha! You brought the HS baseball to the pro's!
• Ironman92

  

  HitsRus;1450768 wrote:I don't have a problem, but if the Tribe's record was well under .500 I'd probably be carping about it. Those guys were hitting below the Mendoza line for quite a while, and Tito never budged them from their spot in the lineup. That's why managers get paid big bucks...because in the end, it's not about how well you follow conventional wisdom, but whether you are putting up W's.
  
  I know that Red's fans don't like Baker's unconventional strategies, but the team is playing .600+ baseball. It's pretty hard not to like that.
  
  Fans are pretty fickle sometimes ( and I include myself in that description) and we overreact if our expectations aren't met. I was talking to some of the 'locals' on the HS baseball forum the past month, and some of them are ready to string up their coach who I've known as one of the best guys in the area....because he team had some troubles and they expected a lot more. Well, he has his team in the regional finals.....What's to hate?

  
  It's not that.....we KNOW this guy cannot get it done in the playoffs. We don't want to make it to the playoffs (where everyone has a chance)....because Dusty's ineptness in the playoffs is proven and true, mixed with his idea of a plate approach.
  
  We have Choo getting on base at a .450 clip and I'd bet my house if we still had Stubbs he'd be in CF and leading off everyday.....it's a flat out 100% no doubter.....and if Dusty managed the Indians Stubbs would be your everyday starting CF and yes he would be leading off.
  
  Dusty is a good veterans player manager.
• HitsRus

  

  ^^^I don't know...who else would you have put in CF last year? I don't know your team that well, and I'm not trying to beat you guys up...but there probably are fans of 25 other teams that would love to be sitting on that record right now.
• SportsAndLady

  

  HitsRus;1450878 wrote:^^^I don't know...who else would you have put in CF last year? I don't know your team that well, and I'm not trying to beat you guys up...but there probably are fans of 25 other teams that would love to be sitting on that record right now.

  
  Again you're not getting it. Just because 25 other teams would love to have our record doesn't make the managers moves not incompetent. 25 other ten would love to have our talent, and would most definitely do better with it than what dusty, a proven loser, would.
• Laley23

  

  Im agreeing with both sides here.
  
  But I will say this, (and I am not calling you out Hits, this is just in general)...I CANNOT STANT fans who think their coach/manager can do no wrong and make terrible in pre/game mistakes just because they win.
  
  If you follow me with IU basketball (like S&L) you know how much I rip on Tom Crean for a lot of his moves. Well, he had the top team in America for most of the season last year.
• HitsRus

  

  ...and I'll say it one more time. You are only blaming the coach for the losses, and only giving the credit to the players when they win. You don't think your coaching staff has/had anything to do with their .600+ record? You bitch about Stubbs....but is he in a Reds uni this year? Baker had nothing to do with that?
• HitsRus

  

  I CANNOT STANT fans who think their coach/manager can do no wrong

  Not saying that at all. I'm sure Baker does some things wrong....I'm just saying that you don't win in major league baseball without doing a lot of things right.
• HitsRus

  

  Hits: ha ha! You brought the HS baseball to the pro's!

  
  I shouldn't have to tell you, BRF, that here in Wayne Co. we play it as if we were pros.
• Azubuike24

  

  HitsRus;1450896 wrote:Not saying that at all. I'm sure Baker does some things wrong....I'm just saying that you don't win in major league baseball without doing a lot of things right.

  There is no bigger critic of Dusty than me on here. It's a nightly discussion in the Reds' threads.
  
  Dusty is a VERY GOOD manager. His career has been VERY GOOD. His record says so. He's won more than he's lost. He's coached 3 teams to division titles. He's a players manager, guys will ball for him and in-turn, he's very loyal.
  
  HOWEVER, he's near the top of the all-time list in playoff series' lost. He's only been to 1 World Series in 21 years. He's still unsure how to manage a bullpen, hash out an offensive gameplan (his teams have always been near the top of the MLB in K's and lowest pitches taken, despite having 2 of the best eyes ever in the modern era leading his lineup (Bonds, Votto) and constructing a lineup.
• Laley23

  

  HitsRus;1450896 wrote:Not saying that at all. I'm sure Baker does some things wrong....I'm just saying that you don't win in major league baseball without doing a lot of things right.

  I know. I even said you werent saying that. It just made me think of it is all.
• Azubuike24

  

  There's also a point where you win so consistently, that taking the next step is the ONLY accepted result.
  
  Dusty is to that point. The Reds have been a great organization the last 5 years. They have made some brilliant moves and in the last 3-4 years, have been a top 10 team in MLB. They are spending money and committed to winning.
  
  If Dusty Baker fails to advance them in the playoffs, HE FAILS. Bottom line.