Ohio Chatter DEV

gorocks99

NNN;788323 wrote:What's wrong with Florida? I mean, besides "nothing"?

The Panthers are consistently in the bottom 5 in attendance and don't seem to want to field winning teams much. The fact that, in terms of percent capacity, Canadian teams have all averaged 98% or higher each of the past 5 years also helps the Canadian argument.

Their financials don't help much either.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/31/hockey-values-09_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

-$13.6 million in 2009

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/nhl08_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

-$9.4 million in 2008

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/31/biz_07nhl_NHL-Team-Valuations_Value.html

-$7.1 million in 2007

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/31/biz_06nhl_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

-$1.9 million in 2006

So in terms of that four year window, the top five in operating income are:
Toronto (+$239.5 million)
Montreal (+$113.6 million)
New York Rangers (+$101.5 million)
Detroit (+$61 million)
Vancouver (+$53.4 million)

And the bottom five are:
Carolina (-$23.1 million)
Columbus (-$26.6 million)
Florida (-$32 million)
New York Islanders (-$35.2 million)
Phoenix (-$45.6 million)

So, clearly, Florida is in a bad place in terms of hockey.

And, actually, in terms of operating incomes it's interesting to see the disparity between the six Canadian teams and the 24 American teams. The six Canadian teams from 2006-2009 posted an operating income of $472 million. The 24 American teams posted an operating income of $73.5 million. Obviously it's skewed by having Toronto - who makes money hand-over-fist Yankees style - but none of the Canadian teams are at a four-year loss in terms of income, whereas half of the American teams are.

Now, I don't know what we'd end up with with teams in smaller Canadian markets - Calgary is currently the smallest Canadian market with a team and they posted the smallest OP of any team up there over that four year span, just $8.2 million, and Winnipeg is the 8th largest market up there, behind Quebec City and the other six who already have a team. But I gotta imagine at least W'peg will break even.

NNN

Sonofanump;788444 wrote:With the pending sale, I do not beleive that any Canadian city (besides Quebec) that has had a franchise post WWII is currently without one.

If Canada were to get another NHL franchise, they would need to somehow have it be between London and Kitchener to draw enough population.

As far as old US cities, I don't know if Hartford would have enought support to take a franchise back.

Hartford doesn't have enough anything to have an NHL team. During their entire tenure, the team never had even 8,000 season tickets sold. The arena was a dump and only somewhat accessible, and nothing has changed.

The only people who gave a damn about Hartford, outside of a segment of the population there, are the nostalgic types.

NNN

gorocks99;788467 wrote:The Panthers are consistently in the bottom 5 in attendance and don't seem to want to field winning teams much. The fact that, in terms of percent capacity, Canadian teams have all averaged 98% or higher each of the past 5 years also helps the Canadian argument.

Their financials don't help much either.

So? You forget one very important thing, and that's whether ownership really cares. There are those who have looked at the numbers and believe that less than half of NHL teams are actually profitable, and that those on the negative side of the ledger include several "traditional" teams. Hell, Chicago had brutal attendance even after the lockout and hemorrhaged money. Suddenly they had some success, and that took care of that.

So, clearly, Florida is in a bad place in terms of hockey.

That's a pretty big jump to make. Florida has been terrible for their entire existence, save the 1995-96 season, yet they've only dropped below 15K average attendance once in the last 13 years. If you pull up the ratings by city from the 2010 Olympic gold medal game, which I believe featured 0 Panthers, there were two separate South Florida cities in the top 25, ahead of several "traditional" markets.

jordo212000

add me to the group who thinks there should be a larger presence in Canada and a limited presence south of the Mason Dixon line

gorocks99

Olympic hockey =/= NHL hockey. The Panthers have one of the worst, if not THE worst, local viewerships in the league (a .19 rating, they get beat locally by infomercials and kids cartoons): http://www.nesn.com/2011/02/florida-panthers-suffer-attendance-and-viewership-woes-as-ratings-come-in-under-kids-cartoons-and-in.html

NNN

gorocks99;788577 wrote:Olympic hockey =/= NHL hockey. The Panthers have one of the worst local viewerships in the league (a .19 rating, they get beat locally by infomercials and kids cartoons): http://www.nesn.com/2011/02/florida-panthers-suffer-attendance-and-viewership-woes-as-ratings-come-in-under-kids-cartoons-and-in.html

How familiar are you with the Panthers' TV deal?

NNN

jordo212000;788573 wrote:add me to the group who thinks there should be a larger presence in Canada and a limited presence south of the Mason Dixon line

Who goes and why, and who gets a team and why?

gorocks99

NNN;788582 wrote:How familiar are you with the Panthers' TV deal?

They're on Fox Sports Florida, right? And honestly, I'm interested as to why Florida is such a great option. If there are numbers that support the team being viable there it'd be good to see - I'm all for successful teams in non-traditional markets - but I'm having a hard time seeing South Florida as a beacon of NHL awesomeness.

NNN

gorocks99;788591 wrote:They're on Fox Sports Florida, right? And honestly, I'm interested as to why Florida is such a great option. If there are numbers that support the team being viable there it'd be good to see - I'm all for successful teams in non-traditional markets - but I'm having a hard time seeing South Florida as a beacon of NHL awesomeness.

Yes on the first part, but the details are a total mystery. Besides, you're asking a market full of the old and decrepit to stay up past "Wheel of Fortune" to watch hockey. If games were at 1 PM on weekdays and broadcast at Golden Corral, the ratings would skyrocket.

And there's nothing that suggests that south Florida is not viable. At least, there's no standard that can be used to assert that point that couldn't also have been used to prove that Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Minnesota, or several other major cities are not viable.

gorocks99

So, would you argue that without full financial records we, as fans, can't determine the viability of a team, or would you argue that financial records shouldn't be a factor in determining viability and that the point of the team isn't necessarily financial success, but rather some immeasurable factor?

Raw Dawgin' it

gorocks99;788591 wrote:They're on Fox Sports Florida, right? And honestly, I'm interested as to why Florida is such a great option. If there are numbers that support the team being viable there it'd be good to see - I'm all for successful teams in non-traditional markets - but I'm having a hard time seeing South Florida as a beacon of NHL awesomeness.

I heard one reason they don't move is because they don't pay a lot to play at their arena.

thavoice

I am all for more canadian teams.....because they appreciate hockey so much more.

Hre is interesting read, for some, about how the exchange rate affects teams in canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2008/10/23/f-nhl-loonie.html

basically says....they pay out in american dollars, and at times (like of this article was written0 the Canada dollar is less....they take in canadain dollars and pay out in american.

ts1227

Winnipeg had their "Drive for 13(K)" season ticket promotion... Moose season ticket holders were given first dibs the past few days and bought about 7,500 of them. The general public was given a crack at the balance of them at 12:00 PM today, and they lasted a whole 1 minute.

MTS Centre only seats a few over 15,000, so they are getting a lot of money up front here. Good sign for Winnipeg.

Cat Food Flambe'

ts1227;790724 wrote:Winnipeg had their "Drive for 13(K)" season ticket promotion... Moose season ticket holders were given first dibs the past few days and bought about 7,500 of them. The general public was given a crack at the balance of them at 12:00 PM today, and they lasted a whole 1 minute.

MTS Centre only seats a few over 15,000, so they are getting a lot of money up front here. Good sign for Winnipeg.

ESPN is stating they sold the entire 13,000 goal - in seventeen minutes. Size of the market isn't the whole picture - it's the size of the market that will pay to see hockey games that matters. I mean, a media market area that would in the bottom quarter of the NFL regularly packs 105,000 butts in seats for football games at tOSU. Even allowing for students, that's pretty good market saturation.

I think Quebec City stands a reasonable chance of getting a relocated team, simply because intense provincial pride will allow them to raise the money to build a suitable facility. Montreal doesn't see to have any issues with another team on PQ. The Leafs, however, will never let a team into Hamilton.

Columbus had better wake up and help arrange a better arena deal with the Blue Jackets, or it could well be the CBJs. With the Schott just two miles up Neil Avenue competing for non-sporting events, they got a bit of a raw deal.

ts1227

They actually took 4 minutes to sell the remaining 5,800 or so today, with all processing taking 17 minutes.

They also capped their waiting list at 8,000 and shut it off too.

sej

One cool thing that happened because of the Thrashers...

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-thrashers/thrashers-may-die-but-967415.html

End of Line

It would be pretty cool to see Teemu Selanne come back and play for one year in Winnipeg.

I highly doubt he would, he'll either retire or play in Anaheim for another year.

ts1227

Sale and relocation were both unanimously approved Tuesday, everything is official.

Team just needs a name.

TedSheckler